Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Forward Together podcast. I'm Rick Muma, president of Wichita State University.
Today I'm joined by Dr. Edward Bart, Director of Wichita State's American sign language program. Dr. Bart came to Wichita from Dallas in 2024 to help grow the university's ASL program. One quick note before we begin. As you know, you can listen to Forward Together as an audio only podcast or watch the full episode on YouTube because much of Dr. Bart's interview is shared through American Sign Language, a visual and spatial language. You will want to watch this one. We're also joined by Peter Buckland who serves as an interpreter. Welcome to the Forward Together podcast.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Dr. Bart and Peter, welcome to the podcast. Good to see you. Thank you for being here and we're really excited to learn more about the ASL program here at Wichita State and your time here and what you are thinking about in terms of this important language that we have really been focusing on at the university for the last few years.
So let's start a first question.
Can you tell me more about your background and what brought you to Wichita State? I know I've had a conversation with you a couple of times, most recently at our holiday party, but also Chio Aguilar, she introduced me to you early on when you were here and I know a little bit about it, but I'm not so sure everybody knows
[00:01:42] Speaker C: why
[00:01:42] Speaker B: you decided to come here and why you think that what we're doing here at Wichita State is worthy of, you know, of your time and talents.
[00:01:57] Speaker C: In short, yes, you know, with a deaf way.
I was born deaf to parents who are hearing. And so I grew up in a mainstream school setting, Dallas, Fort Worth, Texas area, and went through my schooling all the way through there, went even to death camps, graduated high school and I wanted to socialize with more of the deaf community, just be more immersed within the deaf world. So I ended up going to the Rochester Institute of Technology, which is a large program where there is a deaf world where I could be able to develop my identity. I came back to Texas, started my undergraduate and my graduate work, was able to focus my master's work on ASL literature and I started instructing in deaf education. Did that for about four years and thought I want to segue and I would like to teach ASL as a secondary language. So I taught at the high school level at the same time teaching at an interpreting training program in Plato and also Fort Worth, Texas.
So I end up doing that. For a while I felt satisfied, but I decided to go back to My school do schooling at Lamar University and I got my a doctorate in deaf education and deaf studies and really focusing on deaf studies and became interested in media relations and so just seeing or media representation, seeing deaf in films, TVs, et cetera.
And I wanted to start doing more research on that, but I wasn't able to do that within a K through 12 setting at a public school.
So I started looking for a job at a university, which happened to happen at that time. WSU had a needle to be able to run the ASL program here.
And so I said, huh, I think I wouldn't mind having an opportunity that way. I mean, it's rare that deaf people are able to run an ASL program. It's rare to have a person placed in a position like that. So I filled out my application and sent it off, did the interview and behold, I was hired. And so that was back in summer 2024 and I moved to Wichita and I felt really good working with the people here at MCL department, working with Cheo and working with other professors as.
And it's nice that they're able to understand deaf people, that type of approach.
They have an understanding of language and problems, challenges, miscommunication. And so with that we're able me moving into them, I was able to fit into that circle. And so that's why I am here today.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So you said just a moment ago that it's unusual for someone who in your situation to be being an administrator of a program.
How unusual is that?
[00:04:47] Speaker C: Well, it's hard to find the statistics on that, but typically people who are higher up happen to be those that are hearing, those that are not deaf.
And for that, I mean, there's a gamut of different reasons, different factors.
And so giving me one hour of a discussion, there's that, but really we could discuss that more in depth if I had that. But really just having access. There are barriers in so many different settings.
And so one barrier that deaf people have is within their education. They're trying to work up the ranks to be able to receive a degree, look for employment, and then there's employment barriers as well. So for example, here in Kansas, underrepresented for deaf people, we see that there's such a different level of that compared to their hearing counterparts. And so we see that around the United States at large. And so it's really exciting. I'm really thankful for the opportunity to be involved and run an ASL program that's going to impact the deaf community as well as me as A deaf person as an individual too. Yeah.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: And I think that in this conversations that we've had before at the university, before you came here, truly making this a mainstream language on our campus was really important. So the fact that you are coming from the background that you have, I think just to me in my mind, strengthens the program.
Yeah.
So as you've worked to develop and grow the ASL degree program here at Wichita State, what makes our approach to learning this language more distinctive?
[00:06:46] Speaker C: Well, WSU is one has a really big policy here and that is called applied learning.
Applying it, wanting to have students be able to really hands on work, work with the real world, see challenges, real world problems, roll up their sleeves and get at it, be able to really dive into the problem they're facing.
And so one of the things that students need to learn is after they graduate, after what they've applied, they're able to be more conducive to the community.
And so really having that good hands on process is good. But one of the challenges that we end up facing is that we have students who are learning American Sign Language who are trying to work with the deaf community.
But for students who are not prepared, they're going to be making mistakes in the real world. And results can be life or death. Those types of consequences, possibly.
So trying to figure out how do we take a look at this at the ASL program level, see what gaps do we have and how can we apply some of this and make sure that we have a safe space for learning, causing a place to make those errors. That way they can improve on that before they actually go out into the real world and do real work with the deaf community.
So for example, one of our interpreter educators is named Molly MacKenzie.
Molly is her name sign M on the heart here. And she is partnering with the theater department. This was the past fall in 2024.
And so she partnered with the ASL instructor there, Joseph Eric. I'm sorry, the theater department.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Oh, theater, okay.
[00:08:28] Speaker C: Yes, right, right, yeah.
And so the instructor there, you're Rich Urik, was able to do a Twelfth Night Shakespearean play. And so that was the fall. And so she was able to partner, the two of them, were able to work with ASL English translation. So that's what Molly provided for her work. And so the script was provided of that particular play. And so they took a gander at it. They were able to dissect it and work on their translation work from English. I mean, imagine Shakespearean English as well, trying to figure out how to translate that and so Urik, the professor, ended up coming and met with the class and started looking at some of the meanings behind the actual lines. What it's actually trying to say to have them have a better understanding of the translation, not just looking at a particular word and then going, oh, a sign pairs with that. You have to go further, seeing the actual intent of the word as well. So, for example, recently, you're asking me what the sign is for run. Let's say someone's asking me for the sign for run.
What do you mean with the word run? I mean, there's so many different meanings, meanings behind that one word.
So when you're trying to take a really good look at the work, it's a great opportunity for the students to be able to figure out how to do their future work based off of reading and doing some translation work on that script and be able to produce a signed interpretation for that play.
And so that's a safe space to be able to do that work. And I really do applaud and hope that we can continue making those partnerships with the theater department for the future.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Curious to know you mentioned applied learning.
Were you able to access any of those applied learning funds that we recently have for the campus to help build a workforce in various different areas?
Were you able to do that?
[00:10:21] Speaker C: Honestly, I am still new here. I'm trying to navigate through all of this, all the ins and outs.
So that's something that I'm looking for. Yes, something again, just coming up with ideas, trying to envision what are we going to do, all the possibilities. But of course, all these possibilities require money. And that's part of my other work that I have to do is find the money for that. And so there you are.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: Well, just so you know that we have a pot of resources available to help students in various different disciplines practice their education and apply it. And this would be a perfect example of what you could do. So we don't have to talk anymore about that. I was just curious because there is a workforce that's needed in this area.
Next question.
The ASL program here at Wichita State has different tracks.
There's one on language structure, deaf culture and interpreting.
Can you dive a little bit deeper into those, Explain that, how that works? What makes a student pick a particular track versus another one? Or do they engage in all three of these?
[00:11:43] Speaker C: Oh, that's a great, wonderful question here. Yes, we are student centered here at wsu. That's what we are. We're student centered. And that's one of the things great reason about that.
Yes. Yeah, Right. Right over there.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Right over there.
[00:12:00] Speaker C: And so anyways, we do have these three different tracks.
And just, you know, why is ASL popular? As of today? People are looking at it and they're having a curiosity. They're wanting to learn American Sign Language and pick up the language. But what do you do with asl? I mean, there are so many different ways that you can work with it. And we provide three different tracks essentially here. Three different choices that you can choose from here. That way you can match your goals, match your interests, match your motives. And so we have these three tracks here. One of them is interpreting. Obviously, we have another one for language structure.
Really the point of it is linguistics.
And then the third track is deaf culture. And so that's going to be more focusing on advocacy.
So with these three tracks to elaborate on it, I mean, keep in mind that here with the ASL program, it is new. We are still having a sign staked here with big old lights flashing yellow, black, saying, we're still under construction here. And so we're just trying to explain what does this look like. So with the interpreting track first interpreting, the design can be, at first, it's just really a first step for a very long journey in order to become a sign language interpreter.
Now getting a BA degree in American Sign Language and then saying, you are now ready to be an ASL interpreter doesn't work. It's the same thing as becoming a medical doctor. You know, you have four years of college, then four additional years of medical school, and then you say, I'm done now I'm a doctor. That's not quite how it works. You have more years where you're having supervision under a hospital, a few more years down that road, and then after that, and a breath of relief there, you say, finally, yes, here you go. You are a doctor at that point. And that's the same that goes with sign language interpreting. Once you graduate as a student, you find an interpreting mentor, a deaf mentor language model, learn through those means, continue to improve, really do self assessment, and really learn as to what you need to do better at.
And then after that, you pass a certification test, and then you can decide on what type of specificity that you want to work with. And so you'll try to really ponder that, because we're going to be facilitating that journey here as the start of that journey.
But there are so many different kinds of interpreters. As recently I mentioned the theater work. With theater interpreting, there's medical interpreting, there's legal interpreting, there's educational interpreters, mental health interpreters. And so there's a variety of different disciplines there. And so we're trying to figure out how we're able to provide a little bit of exposure, a little taste of each one of those types of opportunities. So that way when they get to work, they can, whether freelance under an agency or even work within the school district, they can work for vri, VRs, Video Relay Interpreting, Video Remote Interpreting. Those are the expansions of those two acronyms I just mentioned. And so just really understanding that you're going to see so many different options. And as we get going, we start improving. We're providing that structure of skills.
That's the first track. The second track is linguistics. Essentially, we look at the linguistics of asl. What does it do as opposed to what does ASL or what does English do and language, what does it look like within ASL compared to the acquisition of English?
And so trying to really take a look at why is it that there is a language attitude showing there's a little bit of a difference or a negative viewpoint on somehow people see English in comparison to asl, that English is better, ASL is lesser than language. Why would people think that a signed language is less than a spoken language language? We see that with language attitude. That's the second track there. And of course with the third, there's advocacy. And we really need to have people who understand the deaf community, who understand deaf community problems and how to approach them, understand deaf people themselves learning asl. Okay, that's great. Well, then we can understand each other. That was where the advocacy comes from. From that and with the intention of that. It's really hard when we're fighting for advocacy, trying to figure out deaf people's experiences. We see that there are a high rate of mental health issues in the deaf community as opposed to hearing people, because we see there are underlying symptoms there that happen, challenges.
Deaf people who are incarcerated.
Research shows that they are going to have more deaf people in prison.
Disproportionately.
We're going to see a larger rate of that compared to those that are hearing.
We just see a variety of different language access issues. And so that's where the advocacy comes in.
Needing people who are interested in supporting deaf people in their education, whether it also be legal support, social work, a specialty with looking at social work, it's good government, you name it. There's so many different things that way. That third track, we can see a lot of advocacy with that being produced.
And granted everyone has the ability to learn asl, everyone can, but it doesn't mean that everyone is able to become an interpreter because it requires a specific mindset, a particular emotion there to be able to get going, motivated to be involved as much as you can within Deaf community. So there's those three tracks there, a
[00:17:50] Speaker B: couple of questions, follow up questions to what you just covered. First of all, tell the listeners, the people who are watching you. In terms of the signing that is being done, what's the prevalence of the deaf culture in our society? Is it increasing?
Staying the same?
Just educate the folks who are watching or listening to the podcast.
[00:18:22] Speaker C: So for deaf culture, we're seeing an increase of that, an improvement over time.
We're seeing people continually having misconceptions.
So I think, for example, I've already taught American Sign language for over 15 years, I think almost 20 years.
And one of the things that I've noticed is that there are several people that have picked ASL because there's no written language involved.
And so we've noticed that there are a lot of neurodiverse students who go, oh, this is perfect. No writing and no reading. This is perfect. I'm going to sign up for that class and work with that class. But find themselves quickly with frustrations as they are struggling to learn American Sign Language. They are struggling because when we go back to this point, asl, in fact, is a language.
And some neurodiverse people who are learning language, they learn it in a different way.
And so there's a little bit of hesitation, there's a little bit of struggles when they're trying to meet that goal and they're trying to figure out how to circumnavigate those goals that they originally intended to find achievement in the goals that they wanted. And I don't want to scare anybody, by the way.
Everyone, like I said, can learn American Sign Language, but with the acquisition of it, you might have one picking it up faster than another person, they might have a little bit more difficulties, but it's just going to take that time.
And that's one of the reasons why I really enjoy ASL being under the mcll, Modern Classical Languages and Literatures, because we are on par with other languages.
We see that what ASL offers, we can see that similar to that of Spanish, that of French, that of Japanese.
And so we see all these different languages here. And when a student looks at these different classes, they can see that they are in fact equal languages. All of those languages mentioned are languages. They have content, they have strong content here. And there is a Lot of rigor to it. And you have to really learn your vocab, really learn the grammar and really do the work of learning the language.
That is what we're trying to do, trying to support that concept here at wsu.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: And so the prevalence of deaf people in our culture, in our society, that's not increasing, that's basically staying constant.
[00:21:04] Speaker C: I would think we're starting to see more and more of it. And the reason why is because of the interest, the media representation. As we're starting to see that pop up in media, we're starting to go, oh, subconsciously, like, oh, this is, is this good, is this bad? Is this so, so, so we're starting to take a look more into that.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: The more there's more recognition of it, people are paying attention to it more. And so, yeah, that makes sense.
And then another follow up question.
So we have a professional sitting right behind me, Peter, who is interpreter.
What would someone like Peter, what track would he, if he wanted to get a degree in American Sign Language? What, what track would he do? Or can you describe that a little bit more? How did Peter get to this point where he's interpreting for.
[00:22:06] Speaker C: That really is great.
So, I mean, that's a long story, a long journey there, being able to take American Sign Language. But the really interesting thing is I've read an article and I wish I could remember the gentleman's name that wrote that article. But the point with that is that a translation class, in an interpreting class, these majors, these tracks, we see across the gamut of that spoken languages, we see that people are already knowledgeable of the language prior to the translation of it. They already have a skill set at that language. So for example, oh, okay, if you want to be a Spanish translator, you already know Spanish before entering into the program and then you learn how to become the translator at that point. But with American Sign Language, we tend to have students that are learning American Sign Language at the same time as learning to become an interpreter, both paired together. And so when they're coming into the ASL program, they know absolutely nothing, zero asl.
And so they're learning both things at the same time.
And so one of the biggest needs that we need to do is really just continual exposure of signing, of interpreting, practicing, practicing, having your hands up and becoming involved within the deaf community at large, being able to get out there and actually sign and learn on your own time, not just going into a classroom and learning and then leave after the class is done doing your homework, going back to class to learn a little Bit more. No, that's not the process. You have to do continually more work. And that's why here at WSU we have an ASL club. And we are having really good resources of students who are wanting to become interpreters.
And many of them just, again, a plug.
The ASL Club was set up for setting up ASL practice hours. We have four sessions here, the first Wednesday and the third Thursday.
Now keep in mind that first week, then we're going to skip and then do the alternative week. So that's why we're trying to figure it out. So regardless, it's going to be the first Wednesday, third Thursday, and we're meeting at Milk Float, it's out in downtown Wichita, which really good coffee, by the way, and good tea and pastries as well. So it's good. So let us know. And thank you, Milkfoot, for letting us use your space. By the way.
It starts at five in the evening, five to seven. And so we just come together, we practice conversationally, working with other students as well as other Deaf community members who also attend. And so there's a lot of practice in those settings. And then the second week, that's a Wednesday, and the fourth Thursday, those alternative weeks, we meet on zoom, we do a little bit like more of training time, same thing, five to seven at night. And the reason why we're choosing Wednesday and Thursdays is because we're looking at student schedules. Sometimes a Wednesday night class might be in conflict with their schedule. So Thursday works, but if we have vice versa, a Thursday conflict, we have Wednesdays available. And of course you can come too, Rick.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Yeah, one might do that.
So back to someone like Peter, who's here with us today.
It just really depends on the individual and their interest in how they have, you know, maybe come along in this area already in this field.
And so it's tailored kind of uniquely the educational aspect and what they end up doing in terms of a job or, you know, working in the field, they come about that in a different way pretty much, is what you're saying. Would that be correct?
[00:25:48] Speaker C: Yeah, different way of approaching that. I mean, there's such a variety of people and there are people who want to work specifically in a particular area. So maybe they want to focus on their skills for work, becoming, let's say, deaf educated, a deaf education interpreter. So they might want to focus on schools.
And so that work, working with little kids, up to older kids, kindergarten, first grade, all the way up to high school students, is different work. And we're seeing that with Those different age groups are different even in comparison to working with adults. And so as they're taking their classes and they're learning, it's really important to have a strong background in academics at large that way, taking science classes, math classes, English classes of the sort.
And that way they have a better understanding. So when the teacher is saying something, they're able to interpret that content better.
And so that's one of the reasons as to why with Registry of Interpreters of the Deaf. It's an RID that is a national organization and so required for interpreters for the deaf. To be able to sign up for your certification test, you have to have a prerequisite of a bachelor's degree.
So there's others that require an aa. But at least with the national organization, with rid, it's a bachelor's prerequisite.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Okay.
Number of jobs available in this field growing plentiful student can expect to find a job pretty easily.
[00:27:23] Speaker C: Yes, we are desperate. We are encountering a problem here in Kansas, but as well on the national scale.
But with Kansas State, what we are seeing is that older interpreters are starting to retire and they're thinking, you know what? I'm done. I'm going to leave the business.
And we're seeing the pool of interpreters dwindle.
And so we're not seeing enough new or younger interpreters entering the field to make that pool larger. We're seeing it shrink, and we're starting to really struggle with the interpreters. And that's why we're trying to really force this to be able to say that there is available work for you.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Okay, so I googled Wichita State's ASL program and just to try and get a feel for the different ASL programs in the country. And we come up in the top of the Google search as one of the programs that's a, you know, thought of in a positive way. I'm assuming there's a reason why.
But I'd like for you to talk a little bit more about that. And I think one of the things that seems a little unique about the program is where it's located. And you mentioned that just a few minutes ago in the modern Classical Languages and Literatures department with our other foreign language programs.
You know, a lot of times the folks are listening or watching this podcast if they know anything about asl. A lot of those times, a lot of times those programs are in health professions where actually the coursework used to be way back in the day or in the education college or, you know, one of those Liberal arts and sciences.
Well, MCL is in liberal arts and sciences, but you know what? You know what I'm saying.
It's never usually in a foreign language department or very, very rarely.
So why is that important to this program? Tell us why that aspect. You mentioned a few things already, but tell us why that's important.
[00:29:39] Speaker C: Yeah, well, it's important. Again, it's just. It is equal. ASL is a language.
We already have 40 years, 50 years of linguistic research that does show evidence that it is fully a language.
ASL is a rich language.
It has everything that a language would incorporate that would be on par with other languages, such as English, French, Spanish, etc.
The other part of it is, and I just want to lightly touch on it, is that there's also a language attitude.
As I've mentioned, as we were talking about before, there's about 30% of ASL programs are housed under a speech program, speech disorders.
And recently here at wsu, we were under Communication Sciences and disorders.
And so that already has a little bit of a negative stigma associated with it, that association.
And so keeping in mind ASL is a product of a broken community, is what's being stated of a disabled community, meaning, oh, really, asl, that's something inherently not as good in comparison to spoken language, but everything's incorporated into it to be a language. But we still, with us, trying to segue from that, that negative connotation, and we're trying to change the mindset and say, hold on, oh, wait a second, Deaf can't talk, Deaf can't hear.
They need to depend on signing, segueing from that mentality to, oh, American Sign Language is a language. Deaf people are a linguistic minority and they have a community, they have a culture.
And so we're trying to reframe that lens.
And so just working with the framework of American Sign Language to see it that way and to see behind the scenes that really there is behind it a deaf community.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's pretty forward thinking in terms of what we've been doing here at the university. And I like the fact that you mentioned where it was before Communication Sciences and disorders, and that, as you said, already sets it up as a negative kind of thing. And so I'm glad that we've transitioned that to where it is today.
So this kind of segues into the kind of a related topic.
So my spouse, First Gentleman, Rick Case, and I had the opportunity to meet Nyle DiMarco.
And I know, you know, who he is, but the listeners, the people who are Watching this.
He's a model, actor, director, best selling author, deaf activist. He won Dancing with the Stars. I can't remember what season he won that contest.
He came to the university in 2019, and just curious to know what you think about him because he's been in the news lately. He has recently completed a documentary on this whole area of making deaf culture more mainstream and people understanding that better.
But how has that activism and his experiences add to the growing attention to the deaf culture and making that a part of our society in a kind of a seamless way?
[00:33:34] Speaker C: That's great.
Yeah. Niles is a really great, good example for the deaf community and for deaf culture.
He truly is. When I'm looking at him, seeing what he's doing and all the things that I see on TV and movies, acting, et cetera, and recently producing that Apple documentary as well has been really great to be able to show with Niles and the university or Gallaudet University with that protest. And so seeing that media there, you know, unfortunately, there's not enough deaf people who do know about that because it's not in our history books.
It's really important for deaf history, but it's not being predominantly taught among the masses. So, of course I teach deaf culture. So I am teaching DPN deaf president now happening in 1988. And the students are like, what? Really? I didn't even know about that.
I've taken U.S. history class and I've taken a WSU class with U.S. history. And so we're seeing exactly that. So we're trying to, you know, with the formation of ada, the Americans Disability act, we're seeing the correlations that with Deaf President Now DPN and closed captioning is being legal. And so we're seeing that with Deaf President now.
And really, I would like to say with that, DPN really made it possible for me to be here in the program as your director.
Because prior to all of that, it was more of a conventional wisdom.
A deaf person running a program, are they actually able to do that?
But now we have a deaf person who's actually running a large program at the university, the university known for deafness across the world over there.
And just seeing the finances, the funds, and having that advertised among the US around the world that a deaf person can do that, a deaf person can do that. And so we see that happening more and it becomes easier for you to think, oh, well, sure, okay, well, a deaf person applied for a job, yeah, they should be able to do that. Let's see how it goes, if they're qualified, then here you're hired. And that's exactly why I'm even here.
And so the other thing I also want to mention as well with Nile is that within the state of Kansas itself as well, Nile is a big component to the push the action for Lead K, which is language equality and acquisitions for deaf kids.
And so he really made a push for that. He fought to improve the education for deaf kids.
Now keep in mind, basically we're trying to have it kindergarten readiness.
Hearing kids getting into kindergarten, they already know a list of vocabulary words by the time they enter the classroom.
For deaf kids, they're typically born to hearing parents. Same for myself. And so when entering in kindergarten, the list of vocab is very short in comparison to hearing students. And so when they're entering school, they're already behind. And so they're already behind of what they need to know based off of their home language.
And so they're constantly falling behind further and further. And so with this, they're like, no, no, no, no, let's stop this. We need to stop it. We need to find, fight and actually create this program, Lead K to make some movement in this area. And that has helped several states. I think there might be about 23, 25, I'm sorry, I don't remember the number of states. But now there's about that many states across the board that have put it into law to make sure that deaf kids are ready for kindergarten. And here in Kansas, we are one of the earliest states to really adopt that legally.
And so since 2018, all of deaf and hard of hearing students age 9 and under have to be assessed in a language acquisition to see where they're at, to see how they're doing in asl, how they're doing in English and how they're doing in both. And so they do that every year they do these assessments and so they collect all this data and they house it under the Kansas School of the Deaf KSD and they have a language assessment program, lap.
And unfortunately, when we're taking a look at that information we see from the year 2023 through 2024, it shows that out of a 211 deaf and hard of hearing children, 211 is the pool that they were able to work at work with and how many students were age appropriate language, how they met those milestones, it's only 19 of that pool that actually did.
And so we're behind.
And so from 0 to 3, they're just a little bit behind, but it ends up becoming worse. Between the ages five to nine, they fall far behind.
And that's still a problem today.
And so, honestly, with that, we're looking at kids specifically, plus deaf adults who are struggling with their access for health care, struggling with access for just language access, education access.
We're seeing it all connected. And it's just. That's what I'm keeping in mind when I'm working here with the ASL program. I'm keeping all that in mind. I would love WSU to be able to teach students to really understand. ASL is in fact, a language linguistically rich, capable of teaching deaf children to grow in their thinking and, and for them to really know that, that the students across the world, this information, we could see that ASL is in fact important, whether you're working at school or a doctor's office. I mean, it could be anywhere. You can say, oh, look it, you can stand up for asl. And so that's what I'm trying to keep in the back of my mind when I reach these goals.
[00:40:03] Speaker B: Yeah, well, just listening to you and watching you, it's really inspiring. And I'm really pleased to hear all of these things that you're thinking about. And I think maybe also Niall, who was here five years ago, roughly, maybe we should bring him back to campus because he has such a presence to him. And I think that might be something that we should consider going forward.
Okay, last question.
So how do you see WSU's Sign Language Program growing in the next several years? What are your plans if you were to grade yourself?
[00:40:50] Speaker A: How long have you been here?
[00:40:55] Speaker C: Oh, let's see. I've been here for one and a half years.
[00:40:58] Speaker B: Okay, so where are you at on grading or A, B, C?
I'm sure it's not anything less than that,
[00:41:09] Speaker C: If I'm going to be honest. I would say maybe a B, A, B. And I think that's because as I'm continuing to work and I'm seeing more of that, then it'll start increasing to the point it's an A. But right now I'm just trying to really remodel some of the courses, the sequences, and making sure there's more of easy instruction, easier for the students to learn, and that way we can have that seamlessly with online learning, of course, our classes are not going to be fully online, but we have technology use, we have blackboard, we have online resources, we have all these resources that are already incorporated to be able to support student learning so students can learn at home.
As they get into the classroom, they can learn from the instructor there as well. And then as they leave, they can continue to learn through online blackboard resources like that. For continued learning at home, we're really developing on partnering with other departments here at wsu, for example, the theater department, law enforcement, the academy there, we would like to make a partnership with them, criminal justice program, partner with them, the biomedical campus, want to make sure that as that has formed, we want to make a partnership with them too. And that way there's opportunity for those applied learnings. And that way students can actually learn from work situations with deaf people if they are needing services in those different areas, instead of being faced with an odd situation and just trying to really work with someone who is in law enforcement, legal realms, or medical. So it really becomes a double benefit for us and for those departments as well. And so as students are learning sign languages in those areas, the other students who are wanting to become law enforcement, wanting to become lawyers, become doctors or nurses, they can go, oh, I see. As we're working with deaf clients, this is how it goes. They can work with the interpreters and learn from that, too. And so, just to let you know, the interpreting community has been making a lot of complaints that doctors are becoming the worst people to work with when it comes to working with interpreters. And so we are hoping to change that, and we're hoping to improve that, and still just to improve the variety of courses that we offer. And then again, also just mentioning, as we're still growing, we have only a limited range of classes that we can offer, and we're working on adding more. So that way it could be a better representation of each of those tracks. So that way students can be able to focus on what they are wanting to learn rather than what's available.
Yeah.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: So follow up to. You're talking about doctors, healthcare providers being really difficult.
That's my background. So I'm just curious, what is the reason, the time, the not willing to spend the time, or needing to move quickly from one patient to the next? What is the difficulty?
Hmm.
[00:44:20] Speaker C: I would say that would be a good perspective. It's timing, trying to get through, get through.
But I think also part of it is that some people, Certain kind of people, they become doctors. Yes. But they become used to the structure, the routine, the order.
And so when you place a deaf person in that, and you place an interpreter alongside that, it throws off that routine, that order. And so there's a little bit of a hiccup there going, oh, ooh, you Feel like you've lost control.
And I think that might be part of it.
And so I do apologize. I want to make sure that there's actually interpreters that are providing feedback. So maybe I can ask if Peter would like to comment on anything like that as well.
This is the interpreter speaking. Yes. I would say that sometimes it's just having doctors become more culturally aware, whether it be Spanish, Hispanic culture, or a variety of different cultures, recognizing that deaf have a place as well. And then. So working with an interpreter makes it a little bit more easy if we're trying to be respectful of the diversity that we have in our community.
And Edward is saying, yes, that's a good point. That's an overlapping challenge that we have both for interpreters and also for a deaf person, is that not only does the interpreter need to interpret and manage between these people, but it's, oh, this is how you use an interpreter. It's a double responsibility. As they're interacting with their hearing counterparts, it's not just the responsibility of the interpreter to do that. It's also the responsibility of the deaf person. But the deaf person has a right to be able to control that situation through that management.
It should be patient first. Right.
But then again, with the patient, they are needing to work through the interpreter to then provide that education. And so, again, it becomes complex.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I can totally relate to this whole idea of the order of healthcare providers. I'm not just talking about physicians, but PAs, nurse practitioners, anybody who provides healthcare there is this certain way that they're taught to get this information first. This information, you know, it's always the same way so they don't miss anything. I can totally see how that could be a problem. The other thing I'll just say, too, since we're talking about this, is that the other complicating thing is the patient, because, you know, patients often defer to physicians or PA as the expert, and so they're not willing to interject themselves and be more in control of their condition. That's the problem with anybody, any patient that you would see. So I could see how that could be even more of a problem in this kind of situation.
[00:47:38] Speaker C: Yeah.
And a little bit related to that. Again, adding that language attitude. If something seems a little lesser than. Right. Asl we're relating that because the deaf person is viewed as lesser than.
And so there are some deaf people in the community that feel angst. Oh, I'm deaf, but I'm not as good as a hearing person.
I feel that I am at a different level. I have to look up to the hearing person. The hearing person looks down on me. And so they become passive in that. And so whatever happens, they just accept and they bear through it, whether it's a bad interpreter, whether it's just dealing with a doctor, and it just becomes that passive approach.
Deaf people have to say, no, no, no, I'm not going to accept this. Stop. And they get into it and that becomes the angry deaf person. At that point, they're viewed that way, and it's like, hold on, hold on. I'm just simply trying to. That's kind of the other overlapping problem that we face.
So, meaning, I mean, to be honest, for me, last year I had struggles getting appropriate language access for my doctor office from my doctor's office. And that was a huge struggle.
And if that's happening to me, of course it's going to be happening to other deaf people.
[00:49:02] Speaker B: Well, Edward, I really appreciate spending this time with you, learning a little bit more about you and your background, why you decided to come to Wichita State. We're really happy that you're here and wanting to make sure that we can do everything that we can to help support the program.
[00:49:18] Speaker A: One of the reasons that we're doing
[00:49:20] Speaker B: this podcast today is to, you know, provide more opportunities to get the word out of what you're doing here at Wichita State. And we want to be a part of that.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: So make sure you share it and
[00:49:33] Speaker B: promote it, and hopefully it'll help you and as you move forward as the director of that program. So it's good to see you and I'm sure we'll be seeing each other around campus as we move forward. Thank you for being here.
[00:49:48] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:49:49] Speaker A: Thanks for joining us today. Be sure to follow, rate and share this podcast so others can find it, too. And if you're curious to learn more about the ideas we touched on, check out my book, Student Centered Innovation, a Guide to Transforming Higher Education. It dives deeper into the story of Wichita State's transformation and what it takes
[00:50:08] Speaker B: to lead meaningful change.
[00:50:10] Speaker A: Visit Wichita.edu book. For more information, go Shockers.
[00:50:24] Speaker B: Sponsorship for the forward together podcast is provided by scott rice officeworks and the shocker store.
Additional thanks to nair amp wsu carpentry shop and go create.
