Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to the Forward Together podcast. I'm Rick Numa, president of Wichita State University.
My guest today is Carl Bowden, who earned his MBA at Wichita State in 2022. He currently works as a consultant for Allen, Gibbs and Hulick, one of the largest CPA advisory firms in Kansas. Karl works as an executive coach specializing in group facilitation and outdoor leadership retreats. Welcome to the show, Carl.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Carl, welcome to the podcast. It's great to see you, and thanks for stopping by.
[00:00:42] Speaker C: Yeah, it's good to be here. Thanks for the invite. It's nice to catch up again. It's always nice running into each other in Wichita and just kind of seeing what each other are doing.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you reminded me I was a guest on your podcast the very beginning. You told me the second episode.
[00:01:03] Speaker C: Yeah, it was the second episode of the Discovery and Leadership podcast. That was back when I was running my business, Exemplify Leadership.
We had a bunch of guests from Witchita here just trying to change the community in a positive direction. But thank you for. For being on that. I literally just listened to that episode before coming here.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Oh, well, hopefully I didn't say anything that wasn't useful.
[00:01:27] Speaker C: No, it was very helpful. We were talking about service and what it means to be a servant leader. A servant leader.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: I remember that now.
[00:01:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: So we'll talk more about how you got into that as we have our conversation today. But as you know, this podcast is really meant to showcase our alums or other people connected to the university.
You got your graduate degree here.
What brought you to Wichita State? Why did you decide to come get your MBA here at Wichita State?
[00:02:01] Speaker C: So kind of a long story there, but ultimately, I think it came down to a past relationship.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:07] Speaker C: I was dating a woman at the time. That's kind of what brought me to Wichita.
It was in the middle of COVID A lot of craziness was happening during that time, and I knew I wanted to get into the leadership profession, and I had that passion within me. It was probably about 10 years prior to that actual moment, and I had applied to a bunch of different graduate schools, but my girlfriend at the time, she was here in Wichita, and the affordability of. Of Wichita State was definitely in line with what I was doing. And they had the program that I wanted to be a part of, which was the MBA program here, and that's what brought me down to Wichita. At the same time, I was starting a business, so a lot happening all at once.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: You said that you knew for a long time you wanted to get into leadership coaching, development.
What sparked that with you? How did that come about?
[00:03:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's always kind of been a part of me, but I didn't realize until I started to reflect and just look back at my life on all these different moments that led me to that passion of leadership.
However, there was one particular moment. It was actually back at K State where I did my undergrad and I came across a book called the 21 Indispensable Qualities of a Leader.
That was by John Maxwell. I read that book and I was just absolutely hooked. Honestly, I didn't really like reading too much before that, but I read that book and I just could not stop reading it. I read it about four to five times back to back. And I just tried to practice it on campus and in the community. And that was the moment where I was like, this is probably, probably my biggest passion that I have ever come across. At the time I was actually getting a wildlife conservation biology degree.
So very much more science related.
And this was more business people related. Okay.
[00:04:19] Speaker B: Well, one of the things I've noticed about you over the years, and you know, I follow you on LinkedIn and you have developed all kinds of leadership programs. You've taken people on trips, I think across the world. Right.
[00:04:34] Speaker C: In some cases I have had some clients in Africa.
So that was from a past, like summer opportunity when I was getting that wildlife conservation biology degree and I was studying mountain lions for a summer.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:04:49] Speaker C: And a woman that I was working with, she went to Africa to study cheetahs and she was putting on this professional development like program with their company. It was called the Zambian Carnivore Program.
And I reached out and I was like, hey, I just started this business, I'd love to help you guys out.
And she's like, yeah, let's have you.
So I was doing kind of like a workshop for them every year for all of their colleagues in Zambia, Africa, and just help them along on their leadership journey.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. Well, and I admire you in terms, you seem to be one of the kind of individuals who sees an opportunity and takes advantage of that. When someone opens up a door, it seems like you go through it.
And I always talk about that too when I'm talking to young people or people who want to know about my leadership journey.
So I do think that's important to do is when people provide these opportunities and when you see an opportunity and you can take advantage of it, you can always go back. But if you don't take advantage of that Sometimes you might have a lot of regrets in that. So maybe talk a little bit more about your journey, so to speak, and how you've looked at things. Because it is kind of unusual that we would have someone early in your career who's out there, you know, coaching people and coaching executives, coaching people in Africa.
I think that's very unique. And so I'd be excited to hear more about what you think about that.
[00:06:33] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think first of all, it takes a lot of courage to just go out there as a young person, just getting done with their graduate degree at Wichita State and being out there getting connected with these high level business leaders.
I always tell people, you know, I don't tell you what to do. I just walk with you on the journey.
I ask the right type of questions to help them see a clearer path.
So, yes, it does take some open minds for someone older, I guess, to look to a younger person and be like, okay, like, why should I listen to these questions or some of your advice? But it's, it's not about me, it's about them. What do they want to accomplish? I help them get there.
Now there's also a huge gap, I would say, in terms of young adults and them needing that leadership guidance.
So that's, that's kind of a niche that I've really started to focus on.
I can connect with that population a little bit better as well. I had to really figure that out, starting a business. Yeah, it's a lot of different experiments that you test. You figure out what works, what doesn't. And that was a population that definitely worked better for me.
[00:07:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I think it's really interesting. You should be very proud of what you've accomplished and what I've seen throughout the short time I've known you.
So a little bit more about that.
You're at Wichita State in the MBA program. How did that help shape your philosophy and your approach to leadership and working with people and helping their journey?
[00:08:23] Speaker C: Yeah, there was a class that I took with Dr. Gerald Graham.
He's been a part of the university for I don't even know how many
[00:08:31] Speaker A: years, more than 50 years.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: People always point back to him. He's been influential in so many. So I thought you were going to say his name, but I wasn't for sure.
[00:08:41] Speaker C: Yeah. And he led the center of Management Development for a number of years. Is he still doing that?
[00:08:46] Speaker B: He's still working at the university. I'm not sure if he's running that particular area, but he's involved in it and I think he teaches and that sort of thing.
[00:08:55] Speaker C: Yeah. So I took his class. It was organizational behavior.
And I would say that was probably one of the most leadership focused classes that I had at Wichita State. And he talked about different levels of management or leadership. And those four levels was a directive style, a coaching style, a supportive style and an encouraging style.
And that really, really stuck out to me because as a leader, we have to meet people where they are, not where we think they should be, but where are they. So there's different styles in how we lead and how we manage.
That really speaks to people more than others, depending on where they're at in an organization.
So a directive style is going to apply a lot more to maybe an entry level employee.
But a coaching style, that's kind of where they're starting to develop that leadership within them. That's where we ask them the question to get them to start leading their own life in their own position within the company. Yeah. And then you got the supportive and encouraging style. So those are your upper level leaders where they already kind of know what to do. They don't need that directive style, but they need more support, more encouragement. They need someone walking with them along the journey there. So that was extremely impactful for me was that class.
The other thing was the Berlin experience, and that was with Dr. Chris Sproberg, Associate dean for the business school here.
And that was life changing too, because of, I think mainly the connections with people all across the world.
I think we had members in our group from about four different countries.
So obviously people from the United States. We had someone from Ghana, someone from India, someone from Japan.
Those, those people from other countries all went to the Berlin School of Economics and Law.
And I think just hearing their different experiences from their countries, but also from where they. They were going to school in Berlin, that was a huge impact. And I, I have still maintained some of those friendships today.
There was a woman named Shruti. She was an exceptional leader, just very motivated in what she was doing. And I still stay in contact with her. And then Isaac, he's. He was the guy from Ghana.
I had a friend of mine where we both traveled Europe together a few years back.
And we went to Berlin because I was like, well, we didn't actually go to Berlin because of COVID And I was like, man, I gotta get there, see what it's like. And Isaac was still in Berlin at the time. So I reached out to Isaac and he showed us around the city and that made our experience so much better. By knowing someone that I went to school with. Yeah, in Berlin, in a different country. And it, it was, it was just a very welcoming experience and friendship. So that was big as well. But within the Berlin experience, we did like a consulting project where we would partner with a business from outside of Germany to try to enter the German market.
So we had to do a lot of interviews, a lot of surveys, questionnaires to figure out, okay, what's the best way for this company to enter into the German market. And then we had to present that to the company at the end. So that was the hands on real world experience that I think Wichita State provides. And I haven't seen many other universities do that better. Yeah. So thankful for that.
[00:13:15] Speaker B: Well, that kind of leads me to my next question.
Applied learning, what you're talking about, experiential learning, you know, giving students that real world experience while they're still in school. And one of the focuses of Wichita State is what makes us different is that we try to make sure that happens the moment they show up on campus. You know, these connections, you know, that's have all these businesses on our campus.
Campus, nearly 50 companies now here located on our campus. We want them to start working with them the moment they show up here.
From your perspective as a leadership coach, you may have hit on some of these already.
What is that kind of hands on experience or why is it so essential in terms of developing effective leaders?
[00:14:03] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think it does go back to that Berlin experience that was essential and it's helped me more than I can imagine being a consultant at AGH here in town now today. So just understanding how the consulting process works I think really helps get into the business community and how businesses work and how they provide services that fits clients, needs and wants.
That just makes life easier for business. So I think that's, I think that's really important. Another thing that I think Wichita State does well is the innovation campus.
So Tanya Witherspoon, I think she's one of the people that leads that here on campus.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: She's not here anymore, but she was here for a number of years. She's kind of moved on to the next stage of her career.
[00:15:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So anyways, like she was out in the community at the time and I
[00:15:07] Speaker B: would always know Tanya really well.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I crossed paths with her and just to hear all the different things that are going on on the innovation campus to bridge the gap of business and academics, that's. That's huge. And I think it's very obvious that you guys are committed to that you literally have a bridge.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:29] Speaker C: Connecting the innovation campus with academics. And again, I don't think many universities do that. Yeah.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: So you've worked in a range of organizations.
Wsu, Tech, nonprofits, other local businesses.
What patterns do you see and how Wichita organizations cultivate leadership and community?
[00:15:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
So it usually starts with a conversation, an idea of where people are at and where they want to be.
And the thing about cultivating community and leadership within businesses, it takes time.
It takes a lot of intentional consistency in meeting, in building community to get them to where they want to go.
So the hard part about all, all of this is that we can, we can have a theory, we can have a conversation, but if we don't get past that and get into the action of what we're actually trying to do in business or what we're trying to build, it's going to be really hard to make change.
So what's going to make it easy on people?
As a leadership coach or consultant, I have to first understand them. I have to ask the right questions of what's going to enable them to get to where they're going to go in the easiest way possible and kind of clearing the path.
There's a concept that I communicate with people. It's called mapping out your leadership adventure. And it's kind of where my conservation background comes in a little bit too. I always have like an outdoor focus on getting companies to understand, okay, where are they at and what's the adventure that they're going on? Maybe they're trying to climb this big peak over here. How are we going to get there?
So along that path, sometimes we come across a stream, a cliff or branches along the path that we have to navigate around.
So helping them to anticipate that going forward, understanding like, oh, there's a cliff here, a river here, some fallen down branches. Those are some of the challenges, the problems that we see in business and help them to understand what it takes to get through that, that's ultimately going to get them up that mountain.
I'm just walking with them, I'm guiding them along the way.
So again, it takes time, takes intentionality.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: This is not a.
I have this conversation too, with students and just younger people. You know, they want to graduate and be a CEO.
It takes time to get there. It's a marathon, not a sprint. You know that this work, it takes a while to find your way and figure out what you want to do. So I really like where you're going with this.
[00:18:48] Speaker C: And that's leadership in general though too, because you can't just go to a seminar or something and just be completely transformed. Problem solved.
It's a process.
It is a adventure.
So we got to have the patience to keep going even when it's tough or we're not getting what we're wanting. Maybe we do want to be a CEO right out of college. It's hard to do, at least at a very high level, let's say at Koch Industries or something.
But, I mean, if you want to start your own business, yeah, you can be a CEO, but you still got to build a business.
Yeah. And that's the hard part.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: So you've mentioned this a couple of times already. You started and wildlife conservation Biology before moving into business and leadership coaching. You talked a little bit about that transition here to Wichita State.
How has that path from science to strategy influenced how you think about growth and leadership? And you may have already given an example about that, but especially in educational settings like wsu.
And before you answer that, where are you from?
[00:20:01] Speaker C: Salina.
[00:20:01] Speaker B: Salina. So you grew up in Kansas, went to K State and got this degree
[00:20:06] Speaker C: in conservation wildlife conservation biology, and then came down to Wichita after working in the conservation industry, I guess for about six years, and then came down here to get into the business side of things, more leadership coaching and consulting and all that.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: So tell me what you did and in the conservation space.
Yeah.
[00:20:32] Speaker C: So after graduating from K State, I worked for Kansas Wildlife and Parks for a little bit and did some research in streams in south central Kansas, but also with some reptiles and amphibians in southeastern Kansas.
[00:20:46] Speaker B: You're one of those guys that has snakes at your house and lizards.
[00:20:49] Speaker C: Yeah. That's how I got into the oil field was I had a really close friend and we would literally go out and just catch snakes and turtles and frogs and anything we can get our hands on and just go climbing and adventuring, build forts and stuff. And that.
That is what got me to that degree. And I absolutely love the outdoors. But there's some positives and negatives. Part of the industry, too. And while I was working for Kansas Wildlife and Parks, the one thing that honestly kind of sucked was that I would always have poison ivy, like pretty much the entire summer.
So that was kind of a downside of working in the outdoor field.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: And that's.
[00:21:38] Speaker C: So
[00:21:40] Speaker B: I get into poison ivy all the time. It seems like in the summertime, too.
It's not a pleasant thing to have.
[00:21:47] Speaker C: Oh, no. And I was pretty allergic to it. So where we were studying was next to streams and I guess you call them Riparian habitats. So those are just like the woodland areas next to the stream or whatever.
And that's where poison ivy is all the time.
So even if I had, like, pants on and everything, I would still get poison ivy. So is that. Or ticks or chiggers or something?
[00:22:17] Speaker B: No air conditioning.
[00:22:18] Speaker C: No air conditioning. Yeah.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:20] Speaker C: So, like, when I had time off, I would honestly kind of want to be indoors and just get away from some of the parasites, I guess.
[00:22:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And the out you get into.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: Yeah. So I. I did work there for a little bit, and then I was actually working in sustainable golf course management in Lawrence, Kansas for about two years. And so it was kind of like environmental consulting.
And it's great, great gig, but was
[00:22:50] Speaker B: like water conservation and.
[00:22:52] Speaker C: Yeah, there's water conservation, soil management, pesticide management, a lot of different things. So we did a bunch of surveys for golf course superintendents to just track the water usage, how much pesticides or fertilizers are using, what are they doing to manage their soils. And we put all that information out, all that data that we compiled, and provided it to those superintendents so they could help monitor things and monitor things,
[00:23:26] Speaker B: see where they were needing to change or.
[00:23:28] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. So did that for a couple years. Went back to my hometown in Salina, worked for the Land Institute for a little bit, and that was more regenerative agriculture or perennial grain agriculture.
So a lot of our grains in farming today are annuals.
They're not perennial. They don't come up every single year. So with perennial grains, you just plant one year, comes up the next five. So you're saving time, money, way better for the environment.
So that was one of the main things that it focused on. Before coming into leadership, I was doing more environmental education, community building, event planning when I was. When I was doing that with the Land Institute.
And I think at that time, that's when I really started looking at, okay, how do we get into leadership? Or how do we spread that word of perennial grains out into the world? And I had a really interesting thought of how to do that and just tried to think of a bunch of different things in my life that spread a message quickly. I instantly thought of my faith and just how, like, instead of just having one centralized focus of operations, I guess, and having those followers or that community having multiple kind of central operations, almost like a franchise model, in a way.
But like within the church, you kind of see that as well. And at least with the Christian faith, like that is completely transformed society more than probably anything.
So in a way, I Try to look at that as a way to lead as well. Instead of leading, just followers, lead leaders.
So it's kind of multiplying that effective
[00:25:29] Speaker B: change train, the trainer pyramid type approach.
[00:25:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
So I think your original question though was how we kind of got off there.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I think you answered some of that, but how did all of that influence in thinking about growth and leadership, especially in educational settings?
[00:25:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
The main thing I've been thinking about lately is the scientific method.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Tell me more about that. Yeah, so learn that in your degree, in your first degree, probably.
[00:26:02] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it was actually, I think it was two or three years into running Exemplify Leadership, the business I was running.
Amber Dunn, she's with nextus, it's a entrepreneurial support organization in town.
And she was a part of a panel. She said that business is really all about doing a set of experiments, finding out what works and what doesn't.
Honestly, that's kind of how the scientific method works. We have a hypothesis, we do our research, we start testing our hypothesis, we gather the data and then we have a conclusion and then we keep doing experiments.
So that has helped a lot, I think, especially in the consulting space, because we do a lot of research by asking a lot of questions of some of the clients that we work with.
We gather all that data, we present the data to the client and then we kind of hash it out a little bit. We do a lot of facilitated discussions, then we have a conclusion and then we start taking the action steps to get them to where they want to be.
So just that concept in general, I think has transformed my thought process and coaching consulting and just kind of bridging the gap of academics with real world experience.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I like that approach. I like how you've applied something that you learned along the way into something that's useful for leaders or potentially useful for them to kind of make sense of things. And you know what I like about it the best?
It's very linear. And I'm obviously a linear, kind of a thinker, kind of a concrete, sequential kind of thinker. And that really resonates with me. Not everybody's that way, obviously, but I do think in just my own experience and being in various different leadership roles, you kind of have to have some of that if you're going to be successful.
You gotta be able to start and finish something and you gotta be able to figure out how you're gonna get there. I think a lot of what maybe trips people up is that they just think about this and they don't think about that process. In your case, the scientific method. There is a method to getting to the end of something.
I think that's interesting that you brought that up. I think that's very useful.
[00:28:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I think our adventures in life and business, I mean, they can be linear. We need to understand the endpoint, but it's a journey. Yeah. That journey is going to be going all kinds of different places, and we have to understand and anticipate some of the peaks and valleys along the way.
And I think just understanding, though, the end goal, what is this all for?
That's what keeps us going. Yeah. And if we can continually remind ourselves of that, then we're gonna get to that end goal or complete that degree or start that Bennett that business.
And oftentimes we just don't know the end goal. We don't spend the time to really figure that out.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:38] Speaker C: That's what I help people do. I help people see that angle, the why, the purpose, the vision, the mission, so they can keep going and they can start off right.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: And in my mind, that's a very linear way of thinking. And I do. I know that some people have different ways of thinking. They're abstract, random, random, whatever, which is fine.
But to your point, thinking about where you're going, you kind of have to think in a. You can kind of curve around a little bit, but you've got to be thinking about where that end goal is. To your point.
[00:30:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Another thing I'm thinking about is, are we doing what we're meant to be doing?
Is this what we're meant for? So is it a passion of ours, but also, are we really good at it because we can be passionate about something but might not be the best at it, or we could be really good at something and we might not really like it all that much.
So I think it's important to understand both of those things, mash it up together, think of the end goal and kind of go in that linear path like you're talking about to get us
[00:30:56] Speaker B: to where we're going. Yeah.
[00:30:57] Speaker C: It makes it a lot easier that way.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: Really useful information.
So if you're talking with current Witch state students, I'm sure you do. I'm sure you come across them and they're preparing to enter their first leadership roles. What advice would you give them about leading with authenticity and impact?
Obviously, those are two important things. We've talked a little bit about impact in your example, but tell me more about that.
[00:31:25] Speaker C: Well, there's a quote that comes to mind. And it states that the most unique thing that we have to provide to the world is ourselves.
It's telling our story now. We have to do a lot of research and understanding of ourselves in order to really bring out that uniqueness.
So we have to do a lot of work up front of just understanding ourselves. I think a lot of the time students get into college just because everyone else is doing it, their friends are doing it. It's kind of like the herd mentality of just following the herd.
We need to be more proactive as students, as a society, and really understanding what do we want, what kind of change do we want?
So we have to be proactive, understand that.
And then once we know that, then we can be ourselves, we can live authentically and make a really big impact in the world.
So ultimately, I would say be yourself, just be yourself.
But in order to be yourself, you got to understand yourself too.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: Yeah, Well, I think being authentic, I personally think that that's probably one of the more important things in terms of, you know, being in a leadership role or leading. And you would agree that everybody can lead, it doesn't matter what role they're in.
But being authentic and approachable, I think is really important.
It's helped me, I think, understand people better and them understanding me too.
[00:33:13] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think part of authenticity is being humble and also vulnerable in just who you are.
I think one thing that I really appreciate about you, Rick, is that you go to where students are.
You don't sit in some high tower waiting for them to come to you or anything like that. You're out there with the people, and I think you share your life well to where. Where people, where students can relate.
And that authenticity, that wholeness of communicating both your professional and personal side of life like that connects and that creates transformation.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:00] Speaker C: So.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: Well, I'm glad you noticed that it is intentional because I think it's important for not only students seeing me in their environment, but I also bring them into my environment too, because I want them to be inspired by that. They might want to be a president one day. And seeing themselves in that kind of environment, in that kind of setting really helps people understand that. And particularly our population of students, we have many first generation students, students who are disadvantaged one way or the other.
Being able to have those kind of experiences, I think helps them probably more than anything.
[00:34:40] Speaker C: I think what you just described there is one of the most underrated things in leadership, is just living the example.
They see what you're doing, how you connect with people, that inspires them to go out there and do the same.
So I think it's very important that we be mindful of who we're surrounding ourselves with, but also the example that we are living to create that positive change.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I really appreciate you stopping by the podcast, and it's good to see you again.
All of this is wonderful information that.
Well, hopefully that listeners and viewers will tune in and listen a little bit about what you had to say, because I think it's all very valid and timely and particularly in difficult times that we are all experiencing.
So thank you so much for doing that.
[00:35:34] Speaker C: Absolutely. Thank you for having me on.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: You're welcome.
[00:35:36] Speaker A: Thanks to our listeners for joining us today. Be sure to follow, rate and share the podcast so others can find it too. And if you're curious to learn more about the ideas touched on, check out my book, Student Centered and Innovation Driven by A Guide to Transforming Higher Education.
It dives deeper into the story of Wichita State's transformation and what it takes
[00:35:57] Speaker B: to lead meaningful change.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: Visit wichita. Edu Book for more information, go Shockers.
[00:36:12] Speaker C: Sponsorship for the Forward Together podcast is provided by Scott Rice officeworks and the Shocker Store.
Additional thanks to Nair Amp WSU Carpentry Shop and gocreate.
