Episode Transcript
[00:00:12] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Forward Together podcast. I'm Rick Muma, president of Wichita State University.
Joining me today is Shocker men's basketball head coach Paul Mills. Mills has coached his team through wins in the first two seasons, which is.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: The best two season win total for.
[00:00:28] Speaker A: Wichita State in 37 years. And we're all looking forward to the upcoming season.
[00:00:34] Speaker B: All right, Paul, thanks for stopping by the podcast. Good to see you and looking forward to hearing what you guys have going on over in men's basketball.
[00:00:43] Speaker C: Well, thanks for having me. I enjoy visiting with you. We visited quite a bit here over the course of the past month, so this isn't awkward for me at all, just given the fact we've spent a lot of time together.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Yeah, well, great.
So I know from previous conversations that today, or not today, this week is kind of a special week. So I want you to describe what's going on so the listeners understand what you've been doing and what you're doing this week.
[00:01:10] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, during my world it's, you only get four hours a week with your team. They're allowed four hours with the strength coach and they're allowed four hours with the coaches. So we kind of break that up. So that's kind of been the case since the end of the season last year. So when all the new players got here in June and July and even in August, you're able to spend what we do is two hours twice a week and spend quality time with those guys and then they're with the strength coach every day, usually for about 45 minutes. But beginning this week, November 4th is our home opener. So. So we get to begin practice at 20 hours a week. So basically four hours a day, six weeks prior. So that landed yesterday for us and we're six weeks away from tipping off and they had a four hour day yesterday. The strength coach does phenomenal job at just getting them in a condition that they can actually go that long. But there is a ramp up process. But I can tell you that us as coaches, I honestly Monday, I thought Monday was the day we were practicing. It's the official practice for most teams but we don't play until the Tuesday, November 4th. But that Monday I woke up at 1:51 revving to go and then it later clicked to me we don't go until tomorrow.
So yeah, it is. It's a fun time.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
So you've been coaching for a long time and. Well, let me back up.
I know a little bit about you personally because we grew up in the same Part of Houston. Same neighborhoods, same school district.
[00:02:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: So when you came here, when you were actually interviewing, I interviewed you. I asked. You said you were from Houston, and I asked you where, you know, thinking, you know, Houston's 60, 70 miles wide and you're from that neighborhood. So we have that connection that I think is cool to have.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Pretty incredible that two people from the Aldean area end up in Wichita.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
So you been coaching for a while. You were at Baylor for 14 years. Right. And then you went on to be the head coach at Oral Roberts. And now this is your third year, getting ready to start your third season at Wichita State. So tell me what you think about the direction of the program, what you've learned so far, and what. What things might be different.
[00:03:38] Speaker C: Yeah, you. When you've been doing this for 31 years, you kind of reflect and all the years are different.
And, you know, it's changed quite a bit. The last two years has changed quite a bit with the introduction of nil, no longer being in the collective front, now moving to an institutional front.
And it's. The players are now immediately eligible. And so recruiting is different and drastically different than what it was even two years ago.
And so I think that, you know, as a coach, you have to be pretty adaptable. You have to be very knowledgeable about all of the things that's going on.
I don't know that it's different than any other profession is. You have to stay ahead of the curve. Like, if you think things that previously worked a year or two ago are going to be the same moving forward, it's just not the case. And in our industry, college athletics has undergone significant changes. The one thing that I don't think changes for us and just how we approach this is always about people. You have to get the right people in the room. You have an executive team, and you have to make sure you're surrounded by the right people. The same thing with us, like, we have to make sure. So the number one, there is a floor at a talent level. Like, there are capabilities that you have to be able to have in order to really flourish. The second thing I think we focus on understanding that there's a baseline involved. Is. Is. Are they enthusiastic? You know, do they enjoy the job? Do they like the job? Do they want to be good at the job? Are they committed to it? So you kind of think through all of those things. I think there's a lot of people who like basketball, but you're honestly trying to find people who love it. Like, they they're just really, really committed to getting the most out of their God given abilities. And then the third thing for us is we really focus on integrity. Like at the end of the day, you and I know really talented people who are knuckleheads as individuals, and you're just like, this is not hard to figure out why you're not going to make it. You're just not dependable. It's hard to trust you. And so finding all three of those boxes at check there is, you know, given the conference that we're in, there is a caliber of talent that's required, that puts you in the upper echelon of college athletics. And then we need to make sure that the other boxes get checked. And as I talk to our staff about quite a bit is we have to be more focused on attributes rather than accolades. I think a lot of people have things that they've accomplished and things that they've done, but if they're not approaching it with the right character, it's going to end up, you know, not working out anyway. And so we find ourselves kind of in that mode that has not changed, even though the industry has.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think one of the things that makes you a good fit for our department, our athletic department, basketball in particular, is that whole integrity piece. It's so important, that culture creating a positive environment for the team, but also your staff.
To me, I'm hoping that that's what it all comes down to. I mean, I know that there's other things that go into the recipe of success, but to me, that's got to be the most important thing.
[00:07:03] Speaker C: Kevin, when he was first interviewing me, mentioned that just from a department and a core principle and from a university standpoint, that doing things the right way matters. And it immediately resonated with me. And I'm just a big believer that the most faithful win. Like, if you'll just continue to show up day in and day out and go about this the right way, you're gonna get rewarded. I don't know when, but it's gonna happen. I remind myself that elevators don't get to the pen house immediately. Right. There's levels to it. But the only way that you know that you're tracking in the right direction is you have dependable people and they care about doing the right thing day in and day out. Because the truth is, is for my job, for your job, we don't have people looking over our shoulders constantly. And the outside people who are not in our world, they have to trust that, you know, what he's fully committed, he's given his heart, he's given his time, he's given his energy to something that's moving forward. And that only happens if you're dealing with people who have integrity and see.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: That progress, which we've, we've seen. So I know that you're big into numbers and data, like the athletic director, Kevin Saul, like me, if you're not measuring, you're not going to be able to prove.
How do you use those, those numbers and that data to make decisions?
[00:08:29] Speaker C: I've heard that before. Hey, Coach Mills, you really like numbers?
You know, I'm not a moron. I taught calculus when I coached high school ball, so I can figure out some. But I do think sometimes from a basketball perspective, it gets a little exaggerated.
If you and I went out there and we both coached two different teams, you coach team A, I coach team B. If a player shot went in five out of 10 times versus another player shot who went in two out of 10 times, you would be like, let's give the guy shot who shots go in five out of 10. So the numbers aren't that astronomical and people over here thinking you're solving differential equations, but there are some metrics and things that are involved, but you're really trying to generate shots on the court and you're trying to prevent other teams from taking shots on the court that you're trying to generate for you. Shots that you make five out of ten times, you're trying to prevent them. Yeah, and a lot of times that just has to do with positions on the floor. Probably doesn't do somebody any good to take a whole bunch of half court shots. They're not going to make those, you know, very often. And so you, you are trying to figure out places on the floor that work and every player is different and you're trying to prevent that, obviously for the opposition. But, you know, I hear coaches and maybe because I've taught calculus and I have a finance degree and I enjoy numbers, it gets a little exaggerated. You know, people think you're staring at a spreadsheet all day and it's not the case, but there are metrics that are in place in order to monitor progress.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: So, yeah, and I hear all the time people talking who, you know, they appear to be or they think they're experts. I guess in sports you probably talk to a lot of these people and they're spouting off all these things about these players and stuff. I mean, how do you. Not asking you, but I'm Thinking to them, how are you keeping this all straight? And does this really matter?
[00:10:35] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the key is, does it really matter? Because we can all throw out statistics.
Whatever your confirmation bias is, you'll probably find statistics that back that up. And I don't know that people actually look at the data. And what I have to do with the data and the one area where numbers really do help me. I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Zero Dark Thirty.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: No, better.
[00:11:01] Speaker C: About the young lady who finds Osama bin Laden, but they mistrack a person who was close to Osama bin Laden and the person who's in charge, like, how did we miss it? And she says, human error. Right. Like, it just. It got lost in the shuffle somewhere. Just. It wasn't intentional. I do that with the numbers. Like, I've got a man. I may really, really like President Muma. He's terrific.
But then I have to go look and say, well, comparatively to somebody else. So I try to get my own bias out of the way. You like a guy, because you know what? You show up 10 minutes early to everything that we do versus the kid that's walking in two minutes before the event starts, and you're like, all right, I like you, but I have to eliminate the human error. And to some degree, that's what numbers do. Right. I get the bias out of the way because sometimes, especially in recruiting, there's an assistant coach who really likes a particular player because he's known him since he's 15 or 16. And you do have to sometimes look at hard data in order to make decisions.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: The facts.
[00:12:07] Speaker C: Absolutely. And that's where the numbers really do.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
So you recently wrote a guest column for our student newspaper, the Sunflower, about your experience waiting in line for Michael Jordan. That was in Houston, right? Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: Sharpstown Mall.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Sharpstown Mall, yeah.
[00:12:24] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: And you were trying to get an autograph from him, and you were the first person in line tell the rest of the story.
[00:12:33] Speaker C: Yeah, you know what I tell people? I had two great privileges in life. One, I had wonderful parents, and the second one is I was born poor.
And I think a lot of us in Aldine area, we just. We didn't have much. And so basketball is kind of the sport of the poor. You know, it's. I couldn't afford a baseball bat, and I couldn't afford a helmet and shoulder pads, but I could run down the end of the street and play basketball with 15 other kids and just loved it and enjoyed it. And Michael Jordan was coming up during that time and I got obsessed with him. He was influencing not only basketball, but he was influencing the culture. So it seeped out to more people. You know, some of our players wear Michael Jordan shoes and you know, they show them off. And I'm like, man, you know what? I saw the originals. I never owned the originals but I was around actually when these were not retro and so. But I was, I was, I mean, I loved Michael Jordan. Obsessed. He was my basketball idol. I had 27 posters of Michael Jordan in my room.
Had one on the ceiling. So when I woke up I saw Michael Jordan and just because I love the game of basketball, he was clear, far and away my favorite player. So he was coming to Houston, saw it in the newspaper. I was probably like a lot of kids who just love sports. Devoured the newspaper. I don't even know if that's a thing any nowadays.
You know, you did it over breakfast some mornings and. And he was coming to Houston and got my mom. Sharpstown Mall 6:00am I'm there, I'm expecting a line somewhere and I'm the first one there. And I think it, you know, it's a Sunday So somewhere around 11 surprised you that the first person there I really was. I figured the whole world would be there to see Michael Jordan. They let us in, they put us near the footlocker. Michael's coming around too.
You know, when I look back, I remember it was around 1:50 and you're counting down the time and it's 10 minutes and I look back and that line seems like miles long.
And Michael comes out around 2 and it is chaos. It is like Michael Jackson or the Beatles had walking out and that line.
No longer is there any organization. Everybody just bum rushes Michael. And I feel like I'm in the middle of a mosh piece because I'm a teenager, 15 and you know, I may weigh 135 pounds soaking wet and I'm getting pushed around. But when they reorganize everything security does, I find myself in the middle of this long line and security guard began to walk down and I saw him glancing as he was walking down the line. So I started to like get out of line and kind of get more in his, in his viewpoint. And he sees me and he points at me and he says, come here. And I'm like, okay, I don't think I'm in trouble.
I don't think I did anything wrong during the mosh pit when it was happening. And so he says, I know you were here. First, let me put you back in the front of the line. So I was the first person to meet Michael and was kind of stunned, you know, by the whole event being 15. And what I shared with the Sunflower is what that security guard did for me.
We want to do for Shocker fans.
We want to make sure that we create a memorable experience and that, you know, that there's an opportunity here by looking at the product on the court, that when people show up, they're reminded not only of the long history and the winning tradition here, but they're reminded that, you know, what people went out of their way as that security guard did. For me to create a memorable experience.
Now we need the people to do what I did and show up, if you'll show up. I do believe that we're making the progress necessary in order to create a memorable experience. It's a memory that I still have, and it's fun just to go around the city of Witchita. You know, when you're the basketball coach, people tell you basketball stories. So how they were there, you know, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, the teams they saw. And always think about that. You know, those memorable experiences that people have. And what that security guard did for me, we want to do for the city of Wichita.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: That's a great story. And if anybody knows, Houston, Sharpstown Mall. I haven't heard anybody say that.
[00:17:03] Speaker C: I don't know what it exists anymore.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: I'm not sure it does anymore.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: But talk about a needle in a haystack. I mean, and there you were able to meet him.
[00:17:12] Speaker C: You know what? You really do remember people.
Again, as fun as it was to meet Michael Jordan, you know, that happenstance meeting, I remember the security guard. And you remember people who go out of your way to create an environment for you, as that guy did for me. And it's another reminder to me about the authenticity of people who are genuinely kind and compassionate and will go out of their way in order to assist somebody. I felt mine was merited. But you also enjoy the unmerited times when people show favor.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: Well, it's great that you're carrying that forward, playing that forward, your own coaching career and your work at the university.
Okay, so switching topics, talk about movies.
Well, we talked about one movie already, but your favorite movie is Hoop dreams. It's a 1994 documentary about two high school basketball players and their journey to college and the rest of their lives.
What about that documentary resonated with you?
[00:18:19] Speaker C: Have you seen it?
[00:18:21] Speaker B: I don't think I have.
[00:18:22] Speaker C: It's Three hours long. So you'd have to take a good portion of time in order to see it. You know, there's a guy by the name of William Gates and Arthur Agee. So they follow him somewhere around the seventh grade.
And somebody predicted that these two young men would be phenoms. Saw them at local basketball courts and just said, you know what? Over the course, well, we're going to document these young men's lives, their situations. And William Gates is the one who, as a freshman is playing at basketball is a big deal in Chicago. Is playing at one of the best basketball places in Chicago, is NBA players Isaiah Thomas, who were, like, following William Gates as a ninth grader. So it isn't as if he's just some regular player. He's getting attention and basically being recruited by everybody and is growing up. He gets injured. And what you see are he comes from a really difficult. Both of these young men do come from really difficult socioeconomic situations.
And what you see is there's a lot of nefarious people who kind of come into the scene trying to capitalize on somebody's talent. Arthur Agee, on the other hand, doesn't materialize like everybody hopes. Arthur Agee ends up being a better player than William Gates. William Gates goes on to Marquette. Arthur Agee goes on and plays at a junior college and eventually Arkansas State. But Arthur Agee ends up with a better career. What I struck, what I really took away from that movie is one, it's so important, the circle you have around you. Like, you could see these parents, the mom for William Gates, and then the parents of Arthur Agee acting as guardians. Right. And I think sometimes we see kids who take directions in life that we may not necessarily approve of, and it's usually the influence that they have, usually outside of the parental realm. Usually the influence they have is not good. And so you begin to realize, like, man, these choices that these young men make, young women make. You know, being a dad of two girls, they always tell you, show us your friends. We'll show you your future. And so it is one of those situations to watch people as who they get surrounded by, what are the reasons that they're surrounded by. And so, you know, the biggest takeaway is we both have staffs, and it's important that we have the right people around us, not people who just go along with whatever we say. Right. We need some level of feedback and opposition. Absolutely. And so you don't get a lot of that in the movie when you see somebody going down the wrong path.
Arthur Agee. What's great about that is his father has a drug problem and Arthur figures it out about the ninth grade and he watches his dad go down this road and he's trying to course correct his dad.
And it's fascinating to me to watch a 15 year old trying to course correct an older adult. His dad eventually makes a turn around Arthur's senior year and realizes this is not a road I want to go down. But you realize just there's so many different things at play in all of these kids lives that sometimes we really need to be mindful of. As you're helping these kids on their journey, I always talk about a coach. You know, what we do, I think about a stage coach. Right. A coach is going to take you from point A to point B.
If you're not familiar with that previous road that they've traveled, you may not be able to navigate B. Well, you know, even though you're starting at A. And so knowing the stories and all that's involved, I just find that so intriguing about that movie and then watching how it plays out as they turn.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: Into adults and sometimes in real life, in your world, my world, learning people's stories, where they're from, what gets them up in the morning, what doesn't, is really interesting to hear those and to utilize that information to help move them forward. I remind faculty on the student side, on the academic side all the time that check in on your students, ask them some open ended questions like, so how's classes going? See what they say, how was your weekend?
And I think it's just really important to do that and glad you're focusing on that and your own work.
[00:23:06] Speaker C: Over in basketball, it's actually one of my favorite things, like just sitting with a kid and hearing his story or maybe just watching a basketball game with him, kind of get an idea about how they're thinking about things. And you know, it goes back. It's cliche, but it really is true. You know, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
And it's hard to get a lot out of people if they know that you don't have genuine, heartfelt reasons for the connection. If this is simply transactional, it's probably not going to work. So I really enjoy getting to know people's stories.
[00:23:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
All right, so there was a great moment earlier this fall when you awarded junior Henry Thingvall a scholarship. He's, he's been on the team for. This is his fourth year.
[00:23:56] Speaker C: Yeah, Fourth year. Fourth year, third year with me.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: Yeah, third year with you.
He'd paid his own way as a walk on on the previous three seasons. Describe the role of a walk on and the importance of that position or probably more than one any given year.
And then Henry's importance to the team.
[00:24:18] Speaker C: One, I don't know that a walk on's job is any different than anybody else's. You know, and I share this from, you know, whether you have my job title, whether you're one of our student coaches, like we all have the same job and it's to add value.
Like people need to know because this person is here, things are better. And so I don't really care who you are, whether you know you're considered the leading scorer or whether you're considered a walk on. Your job is to add value.
We need to make sure that we are leaving this better than we found it. I had a high school coach that when we walked in the locker room he would always, he would say leave it better than you found it. So when we left, when we left Eisenhower High School we would make sure that, man, the chairs were folded, the trash was picked up. We left it better than we found it. That's what you ask players to do. Hey, when you leave here today, you need to leave better than when you came in here. When we began practice at 2:30, Henry does that. We ask that out of all of our players and to watch him faithfully do it. You know, you get some people who get motivated to work out and they'll work out for like two weeks and then they stop working out for the next two months. That's me.
And. But he was just the entire time just doing everything he was asked to do and it didn't matter, you know, rain or rain or shine, he was going to show up and do his job. And I can't tell you how much I just appreciate that.
And his job day in and day out kind of depends. You know, a lot of times walk ons find themselves imitating a good player on the other team. We usually have five guys who know the plays of the other team. And a lot of times it's players on your team, usually some freshmen, some walk ons who kind of go through the other team's plays three or four days before we play them. And then they've got to mimic that and we have to turn around and try to defend it or, or try to score against it. And he played that role to a tee, did it. You got to do it with a smile on your face.
You have to have gratitude, just understanding. It is a privilege to represent Wichita State. And you also have to do it with humility, like understanding. Listen, I do need to get better. There are things I need to improve. And he does that. He's going to be phenomenal at whatever he does. His dad's an attorney. Keeps telling me that he's getting pushed into being an attorney. He said he hadn't made that decision. I remember one time last summer, I said, henry, you looked a little tired. And he said, well, my dad and I, we went to Denver and we did a triathlon. So I don't know how much you'll get out of me today. And I was just like a triathlon.
And you're showing up here on Monday, 10am at practice, you know, but that's. That's Henry. He's going to do his responsibility and he adds a ton of value.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: I was at your open practice last week and he was obviously practicing with the team. He was just getting after it the whole time. And all the players were. But, you know, just since we're talking about Henry, he really was giving them a run for their money.
[00:27:26] Speaker C: If Henry hears this, he went over three from three yesterday. He needs to make shots today. Okay, I'm just ribbing him here.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, the thing that allowed this is the changes in the new rules in athletics that allowed you to have another scholarship. Right.
[00:27:45] Speaker C: We get 15 now previously at 13. You've seen across the board, from the softball team to the volleyball team to the baseball team, people are afforded now more scholarships on account of the house settlement. And so all of that allowed us to. And again, which you really appreciate is the faithfulness there, but it does allow us to get to 15 on scholarship.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
So I know people who are listening. When is Paul going to talk about his season? That's coming up. And we've heard enough about what Rick and Paul think about the world and how we should interact with people.
So I know you have a tip off luncheon coming up in a couple of weeks where people get to hear more from you.
So tell us a little bit about the schedule that's coming up in terms of the preseason and what's your major hopes at this point?
[00:28:43] Speaker C: Yeah, well, our major hopes is to win a national championship.
So, you know, that's the goal, obviously, to win a championship. And, you know, we saw a championship one in Koch arena earlier this year with tbt, you know, having been. I think I just missed one game of the aftershocks. I was in Texas recruiting the one day That I wasn't able to be there. But, you know, again, the community support and to be able to watch everybody and we get it, like, you have to have a product on the floor that people care about seeing. And so our goal is to win a championship. I feel good about how we're positioned. We have a really dynamic score. I was just looking at a magazine that do these preseason prognostications, and they had one of our players, Kenyon Giles, they called him the Tiny Terror. And he really is. He can really score. You know, he's under six foot, so they kind of give him that label. And we have a guy in Kenyon who can really score. We have a guy who can really defend.
With Karon Boyd at 6 foot 5, he was defensive player of the year at his previous institution, East Tennessee State. And then I feel like we have really good depth in our front court.
Will Berg was at Purdue, 7 foot 2. Emmanuel Okorafor was at Seton hall at 6 foot 10. And they really provide depth that can give us some different dynamics on the court. So we've been the number one team in our league in rebounding.
I believe that'll continue to be the case. I know that's what we're striving to do. And all the guys, all three of those guys, minus Kenyon Giles, the Tiny Terror, all three of those guys can really, really help us on the offensive glass. And then I feel really good about the progress we've made defensively.
We haven't shot the ball well has been our biggest issue my two years here, and feel like we now put people in our locker room who can make shots, who understand the things we need to do in order to make shots. So everybody feels good about their team on the first day of practice.
And I'm no different than anybody else and looking forward to seeing how this plays out.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: And you have the preseason schedules pretty much set. What's your thoughts on that?
[00:31:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't know if you want to spend Thanksgiving in the Bahamas, but you're more than welcome to.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: I'm going to go.
[00:31:09] Speaker C: All right. All right. So, yeah, we got a preseason tournament battle for Atlantis where we open up against a very good St. Mary's team, traditionally a top 25 team in the country, in St. Mary's in California, and then will either play Colorado State or Virginia Tech. And so, again, there's really, really quality teams there. Prior to that, we play a team that's gone to the NCAA tournament five of the last six years in Boise State. We'll get to play DePaul here at home. We'll travel to Northern Iowa, which is a Missouri Valley, familiar foe around here, and just feel real good about the opportunity to improve in order to get to conference. And that's going to happen for us. I don't think I'm allowed to say, but we're going to start on the road on New Year's Eve and so everything's kind of building up in order to make sure you're positioned to be ultra competitive, hyper competitive when you get to conference and so you have these games. We're fortunate. I believe we play eight home games so there'll be plenty of opportunities to see us and the progress that we make. And really excited about the season.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: Yeah, well, having been at that open practice, what do I know?
Just the president of the university. I shouldn't know about these things. That's why we had people like you.
It seemed different, the energy there, as you said, the depth.
And they were really hustling. So I can't wait for the fans to. To see them in their first play. And that game is what. What date is that?
[00:32:49] Speaker C: November 4th.
[00:32:50] Speaker B: November 4th.
[00:32:51] Speaker C: Yeah. We opened the year against UNC Asheville, so I think for a lot of coaches it's like Christmas. Like you feel like you got a really good gift for your spouse, but you kind of have to wait. Let's see their reaction and hopefully everything's in place and we wrapped it the right way and that's kind of how you feel about November 4th. So we're ready to kind of unwrap the package.
[00:33:14] Speaker B: That's great. Well, it's good to see you. Thanks for stopping by the podcast.
[00:33:17] Speaker C: Great to see you. Thank you.
[00:33:19] Speaker A: Thanks for joining us today. Be sure to follow, rate and share the podcast so others can find it too. And if you're curious to learn more about the ideas we touched on, check out my book, Student Centered Innovation a guide to Transforming Higher Education.
It dives deeper into the story of Wichita State transformation and what it takes to lead meaningful change. Visit Wichita.edu book for more information.
Join me next time when my guests will be Grammy Award winning mezzo soprano and Debsu alum Joyce DiDonato go Shockers.
[00:34:00] Speaker C: Sponsorship for the Forward to Together podcast is provided by Scott Rice Officeworks and the Shocker Store.
Additional thanks to Nair Amp WSU Carpentry Shop and Go Create.
