Episode 8 - Name, Image and Likeness

Speaker 1 00:00:06 Hello everyone, and welcome to this month's edition of the Forward Together podcast. Today we're talking with Kevin Saul, who was hired as a director of athletics at which Utah State University in June. Kevin is leading Shock Athletics during a time of significant change, name, image, and likeness. The transfer portal and conference realignment. Top the list. Kevin will take a lead role as Wichita State navigates this new environment in its sixth year as a member of the American Athletic Conference. Well, Kevin, thank you for being here today and, um, joining me on this podcast. Um, looking forward to talking to you about what you're doing in athletics. But before we start, um, you have a really inspiring, uh, backstory and, um, a lot of it has to do with, um, your connection to Kansas. And, um, if you could tell us a little bit about that and, and then why you applied for the job. Speaker 2 00:00:56 Thanks so much for having us, uh, on the podcast. So yeah, absolutely. We're, I'm a native of Kansas, was born and raised in, uh, Manhattan, Kansas. Dad was a psychology professor at Kansas State. Mom was an advisor in the College of Arts and Sciences. So we grew up on a college campus. Um, our dinner table conversations at night, you could imagine where student athlete development focused and, uh, student development focused and all those things. And so, you know, dad's journey, uh, very tight with my father and, uh, he went from a, a, a professor to a department, head to a dean, and eventually a provost. And certainly you can appreciate that pathway and, and, uh, all the challenges. And as I've, uh, gone through my athletics career, I've certainly bounced a lot of things off of, off of him. So I feel like we have a unique perspective as an athletics director and a real appreciation for the educational piece of it. Speaker 2 00:01:46 You know, after obtaining a master's degree in, in Lawrence, uh, we're going through the process, try to finish our doctoral degree mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, from Murray State. So the, the educational tie is very important, which Utah State, um, has always been a place that's been on my radar from a young person in elementary and junior high watching her that the baseball, the emergence of college baseball and ESPN and, and Gene Stevenson, and Skip Burtman and Augie Gudo and, and all of that. Um, to, you know, going through my career in athletics, certainly crossing paths with the shockers in numerous times. And it's always been a program that I've, uh, I've watched closely. So to have an opportunity come back home to work, um, for you and an incredible vision that so many folks have been responsible for carrying through here at Wichita State, um, and athletics program that has shown tremendous success throughout history, um, was a great opportunity for me and my family. My wife Jennifer, also born and raised in Manhattan. Um, so we're very close to a lot of family and friends in Kansas and it's, uh, it's been a, a remarkable, um, transition in our lives. Speaker 1 00:02:53 Yeah. And I appreciate you sharing this, um, because I always think, uh, that people who have some sort of personal connection to an institution wherever they work, that's usually when they have the most success because they're, they're, they understand the community, they understand the culture. They, they understand what, um, uh, what what the institution is trying to do. So I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. Well, let's start with a definition. Um, what should people understand to learn more about name, image, and likeness? Speaker 2 00:03:25 Well, absolutely. First and foremost, you hear name, image likeness, you hear ni l uh, really it refers to the way our college athletes can receive compensation permissively now. So, youth of an use of an athlete's name, image, likeness, uh, whether it involves a business or branding, um, how they leverage their name, their image, and their likeness through marketing or promotional efforts with a, with a business partner. You know, I use a really simple example. When I was a student athlete 25 years ago, um, we couldn't have jobs or there was no ni and if I had a classmate that was a really skilled pianist and she wanted to go to a restaurant on a Friday night and and play for an hour and be compensated for that, she could do that based on her skills and her image and, and all those things. And we couldn't do that as student athletes. So in it's very simplest form, it really allows, uh, student athletes to the ability to do that. Speaker 1 00:04:20 Yeah, I think that's a great example. People can really see, uh, the, the, the discrepancy there and the, and the disparities that are among our performing arts majors, cuz they do that, that all the time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what's, uh, Wita states responsibility in connecting students with i l opportunities? Well, Speaker 2 00:04:39 I think first and foremost we talk about our program. It really needs to include protecting the integrity of the institution and then ultimately the eligibility of the student athletes, which means we've gotta do it within the rules. And there's NCAA guidance. Uh, there are state guidances throughout the country. I think first and foremost is a central spot for information. And so we have a website that is www.goshockers.com, um, slash ni l and that really is the centralized, uh, spot for all the information as it relates to name, image likeness. And I'll refer to that website through our, throughout our discussion. Um, so the legislation, the NCAA legislation focuses more on what institutions can't do. And I'm sure we'll get to that here shortly, but, uh, more so talk about our responsibility really is to establish, um, communication. Uh, really an initial policy is the first piece. Speaker 2 00:05:34 We've gotta establish a policy. So we have a policy that was updated August of, of 22 mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, as the rules have evolved. Um, and though, so that piece is really important. And then we've gotta educate our student athletes, our boosters, season ticket holders, donors on that policy, what's permissible within that policy, communicate the importance of the activity on retention for student athletes. Right. We, we've gotta be competitive in that space mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, if we're gonna retain elite level student athletes. So, and then really it's setting up the infrastructure and, uh, we'll talk a little bit about open doors and the armchair strategies, uh, in a little bit. But I heard of a very good analogy that the athletic department's role is really to set up the infrastructure. We provide the telephone line, if you will, and the use of that infrastructure really is between the business community and the student athlete. Speaker 1 00:06:25 Yeah. And you know, there's always been this mystery about this, but could you talk a little bit about, um, the, the, the Supreme Court decision, which led up to this, um, this just last year? I think it Speaker 2 00:06:39 Was. Yes. Yes, absolutely. And if you look at the history of a scholarship, um, when I was a student athlete as an Olympic sports student athlete, there were five traditional elements of a scholarship room, board, books, tuition, and fees. About seven years ago. Uh, the NCAA legislated that you could pay, the full cost of attendance was the term that was used at that point in time. And so you might ask, Well, what's the difference between full cost of attendance and those traditional five elements? And it's things like reasonable entertainment, travel back and forth from home medical expenses that aren't really contained within room board books, tuitions, and, and fees. And so at Wichita State, we provide a cost of attendance check monthly to all of our student athletes. It's about a $250 check per month. So that's a real positive. Um, yeah. In terms of what has occurred in the past, recently, a federal district court also ruled nationally that you could, um, pay, uh, student athletes, you could compensate an award for academic performance. Speaker 2 00:07:45 So we have a goal, as you know, to be a 3.0 gpa, department wide, uh, performer, uh, academically. And we've got strategic objectives to be at a three three and a three four. And, and to stretch those, we can incentivize student athletes who perform at an elite level academically. We can also incentivize student athletes for remaining at Wichita State, um, beyond a transfer window. So those sten educational funds are critically important. So what we just covered was two additional elements of a scholarship, the five traditional cost of attendance, and the Austin Educational Awards. And so those are great, um, steps for our student athletes. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:08:25 And so we're, just, so our listeners understand, we're doing six of those, um, the seventh and the Austin decision, which was named after that Supreme Court decision that allowed for that. And this i l um, uh, you know, rules and regulations, um, we're not currently doing, but we're working. Isn't that, Speaker 2 00:08:45 That's, that's right. Correct. Yeah, absolutely. We do the six elements, the seventh and the Austin Educational Awards we're currently fundraising for, It's one of the pathways that we will utilize the shocker way unrestricted giving campaign that we launched, uh, this last week. We've got gifts and pledges, uh, close to $200,000 already for that fund, and we would intend to route some of those funds to the Austin Educational Speaker 1 00:09:06 Awards. Yeah, that'd be great. To help support the, the, the student athletes. So what's not allowed specifically under IL rules? Speaker 2 00:09:14 Well, institutions, um, based on the NCAA's guidance, um, cannot arrange or negotiate NI transactions for student athletes. So representatives of the institution cannot be the, the, the middle person, if you will, between a student athlete and a business in the community. That has to be a direct link. Um, we cannot, uh, promise ni l activity in the recruiting process. That's called a recruiting inducement. And so we can't utilize NI l as recruiting inducements, and then it can't be set up as a pay for play, uh, where it might be a quid pro quo for certain statistical performance or achievements. Um, it, it really truly is a market driven, isolated to name image likeness. It's not about performance on the court or the field. Um, certainly that has an indirect impact, but those are the three primary areas of guidance that the NCAA has, has pushed forward. What's interesting about the NI spaces, there's only 22 states that have state laws mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so there's an imbalance in terms of the foundation and how it's being executed nationally, and I would anticipate at some point down the road, we might get some federal guidance Yeah. On, on that. Speaker 1 00:10:26 I've heard you, uh, say in other forums, uh, how, um, this, it's, there's some misinformation out there about the amount of dollars are going to athletes, um, who are engaged in NI activities. Could you explain that a little bit more? Yeah. And, and, and how you, uh, have been tracking that. Speaker 2 00:10:45 I would be happy to. So, uh, one of the partners that we'll talk about in our infrastructure is open doors. And Open Doors is simply a third party that provides a website, and then they provide a marketplace that connects the businesses to our student athletes. Well, n NL started in, uh, July of, uh, 21. And so we're really just at the, the one year mark, um, as, as you work your way through that, the, the, uh, fourth quarter financial quarter of 21, So we're talking October, November, and December of 21, open doors logged and tracked 5,200 NI transactions nationwide. Okay. So in a three month period that would've been, uh, the fourth, fifth and sixth month of NI existence, of those 5,200 transactions, the average was $1,100 per transaction. Okay. So if you're a student athlete and you think about that, you think you can enter that space at about $1,100 per transaction. Speaker 2 00:11:43 Well, what's misleading is, is that the median transaction number is $300 mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so I think that in combination with the, the media exposure, the national media exposure of these five, six, and seven figure NL deals, they have a significant influence because they pull a median of 300 up to an average of 1100, but the overwhelming majority of NI l deals is done in the hundreds of dollars and not in the thousands of dollars. And so that really impacts the market that we're trying to be competitive in. Yeah. We don't need to be competitive in the five, six, and seven figure market. We need to be competitive in the three and four figure market per transaction. Speaker 1 00:12:23 Yeah. And so this, this to me, uh, means that this is doable for us and, and, and who we are and where we are and, and what kind of support we have. You know, a lot of people see these news reports that you're alluding to that, you know, K State lost a basketball player to Miami for, I think $800,000 or something like that. Tennessee gave a a, a potential or not a potential, a high school student who committed to Tennessee a quarterback, I think 8 million over the time that he'd be playing in Tennessee. And think people are scared about that. But yes, that's not really the norm, and that's not what we're likely to see, uh, uh, and be need to be concerned about. Speaker 2 00:13:06 No. And as I sit down with recruits and their families, which I really enjoy that part of the job as we sell, which Tu state, um, we'll talk about, um, historical activity in l that's not considered a recruiting inducement. Uh, when a young person's on our campus, we can talk about history in fact. And so the ability for us to talk about our, our men's basketball program sitting underneath a 10 at the River Fest over the course of the summer and getting several hundred dollars to do an autograph session, we can talk about that because it speaks to the market and what the market is starting to learn to do in the space. Sidney McKinney with our softball program has done an unbelievable job, uh, there. And so we'll share those stories, and as we do, I watch the nonverbal, uh, behavior of our, of our, uh, recruits and their parents and their family members, and that checks a box for them when they hear, Yeah, okay, we're active in the space and we're growing it. It's new and we've got a great market that we live and work in. And, and I can be successful in that area here. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:14:05 So you, you, you talk about Open Doors marketplace, um, we also have, uh, a connection with armchair strategies, um, collected mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So how do those two groups play into our overall competitive competitiveness in that we're thinking about as an institution? Speaker 2 00:14:23 Sure. So the Open Doors marketplace, we'll start with that. Open Doors is a third party, basically website administrator that, uh, Wichita State Athletics contracts with the host a website for us. That website is called The Shocker Marketplace, and you'll see a connection to that on the website. We referenced earlier, uh, go shockers.com/ni. When you go onto the marketplace, you have the ability to search and, and, and find any one of our student athletes. You can see the history of the NI l transactions that they've done, the activities that they've had, uh, through open doors. And it's a connection point. Okay. You and I have talked about a, a few times where we felt, um, a few months ago, some might use the word, Hey, we were a little bit behind in this space, but I feel like we're one of 24 institutions with an Open Doors marketplace now, nationally, we've taken some significant steps forward in the last, uh, couple of months. Speaker 2 00:15:19 And Open Doors is great for the individual. Let's say that we've got a, a car dealership in town that would like to have a student athlete come out and do a one hour autograph session or speak to their employees, uh, whatever the case may be. They can pitch those ideas on the marketplace. Um, student athlete accepts, um, it will go ahead and execute an agreement which is, protects the integrity of the institution. It will, um, confirm that the activity is actually taking place with photographs and, and all those things. And then it'll actually walk our student athletes through some of the tax liabilities because it is taxable income for them. And so the, one of the very bright spots of this is our young people are learning about taxes earlier than they might otherwise learn about taxes. So that piece is really good. Um, the Armchair strategies takes a little bit different approach to it. Speaker 2 00:16:07 They're called a collective because what they do is they, they fundraise and collect funds, they create the opportunities. So in other words, individuals that were interested this summer in, in supporting n I l contributed funds to armchair Strategies, Collective Armchair Strategies Collective reached out to River Fest and put that autograph session piece together, uh, in order to be able to, to fund our student athletes in that way. One thing that I think's really important for us to stress institutionally is that certainly don't want to be in the business of, of directing funds for donors when they want to be, uh, very generous. Um, we, we don't necessarily want to force those funds into certain spots. What is key, though, is that ni l uh, participation be above and beyond what you're already doing for athletics, because at the end of the day, if we're taking funds from annual operating budgets and putting it into our student athletes pockets through NI l certainly helps the student athletes, but may, may not be helping us grow our programs. And so that piece is important. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:17:12 So, uh, when I hired you, I, I, we did a lot of talking, uh, leading up to that. And one of the things that I thought was really important that was desperately needed is, um, you as a new athletic director needed to get out into the community, talking to our supporters, talking to our, our alums, talking to, uh, the folks that really, uh, have made Soccer Nation what it is today mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, and I, I appreciate that. I know you've only been here a couple of months and you've done so much and, and really made great connection, so thank you for that. So talk a little bit more about the importance of that and how that connects to our scholarship, athletic association, say so, and, and how important that is for our programs and Competi competitiveness. Well, Speaker 2 00:18:01 And I, I appreciate that and, and you and I had great conversations through the process, and those connections with our donors and our community and season ticket holders have been very, very important. And we've, we've made our best efforts to do that for, with folks that have been very supportive. The Shocker Athletic Scholarship organization really provides critical support for 250 student athletes. And I think it's important, we've got a, a say so is the abbreviated version of that Shocker, Athletic Scholarship organization. We have an event for our Say so donors tonight, and I'm gonna share with them their stats. Our student athletes come from 30 plus different states, 24 countries. They represent 68 academic majors. Um, here at Wichita State, we have 50% first generation college students, uh, within our student athlete population. And about 15 to 20% are on Fed federal PE assistance. And so we're serving a student athlete that hasn't necessarily seen a role model in their families before. Speaker 2 00:18:53 And, uh, replicates very much what we do here at Wichita State and the general student population as well. So, um, we're ushering generational and transformational change within those student athletes' families, and that's very inspiring and motivating for all of us. Um, the, our student athletes performed really well academically, um, 3.0 department wide GPA for the last 34 consecutive semesters. And in the spring of 2022, we were a 3.3. So very, very strong. And, and that doesn't happen without the support of say, So those say, So funds are accumulated through seat donations that are a part of our men's basketball season ticket sales annually. And so, so the support of men's basketball through season tickets and say, So donations impacts both scholarship support for our 15 sport programs and 250 student athletes in addition to providing the ticket income that helps fund our entire program. So in a way, we've put a lot of our eggs in one basket. Yeah. Um, and that's critically important to us. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:19:56 You know, listen to you talking through this, is that, um, and this is some of the conversations that I have with supporters, um, donors, um, you know, interested parties, They forget that athletes are, are actually students mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and that's really, uh, the most important thing is that they, they get a good experience and that they're prepared to go out to whatever they wanna do, whether that's professional sports, and some of them will have that opportunity. Others will, uh, go on and, and get into their disciplines that they studied here. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So you've made a great effort of making sure people, um, understand that first and foremost, that this is all about students. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, So, um, facilities mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So when we were making the transition, um, uh, in the athletic department, uh, one of the things I did before I, um, started the interviews is that I, I'd been to the facilities across campus numerous times, but not really studying them and in a holistic way. So I spent a day going through all of our facilities, um, and we have some really great facilities. We have some facilities that need a little work mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we have some facilities that, that need to be replaced. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, uh, you know, I've talked a lot about that. Uh, I know you're embarking on a, a master plan for that. Can you tell us where you are in that process and how you see this going forward? Speaker 2 00:21:21 Absolutely. I'd be happy to. So, uh, you're right. We've got some incredible facilities. And again, I think it's important, just like on the campus side, there's, um, you never reach the finish line on your facilities. There's always something to grow and improve on. So, and, and we've made some great improvements and, uh, certainly have great partnerships in that baseball and softball. We've done new turf in the indoor, uh, bomber hitting facility training facility that services both baseball and softball, and then recently softball with new lights, batting cages. We're expanding that third base dugout. So we have an opportunity to host AAC championships, some really good things going on the facility master planning process, which by the way, started this week. And, uh, we're excited about that. It's really an effort to define a pathway, uh, for all 15 of our sports and the facilities that they use that are so critical to their development. Speaker 2 00:22:10 And I think that's the, the overarching, uh, philosophy on a facility master plan is student athlete recruitment, uh, retention, and then ultimately development. Not dissimilar to our campus spaces. We want to, Woolsey Hall is a great example. We want to recruit elite level business school students. Uh, we want to retain and develop them. And so we do the same thing in athletics and, um, we'll define that pathway in, in, in defining that pathway, I think it's really important to, um, get to timelines, scope, cost, uh, renderings so that you can really define the vision for those spaces. As we sit down with folks that have interest in those areas, is showing them there's a defined plan. And that's really what the facility master plan is, is creating that plan for all of our facilities. Speaker 1 00:22:57 Yeah. At recent conversations, uh, with, uh, interested parties around our, our facilities. Um, uh, I had this conversation just yesterday with a group of individuals and, and, um, what I, what I know, and I think what, you know, from being here in this short period of time is that people want championships. They wanna win championships, they wanna host championships that, and we have to get real about that, and that means that we have to have support to, to build these facilities and maintain them, all of them, um, not just a couple. Uh, so yeah, it's, it's also a focus of the university we'll be, uh, joining in on, on that as we look at the entire campus. So I think looking forward to that partnership. Speaker 2 00:23:42 Absolutely. And I think we've used the analogy about aligning resources to expectations, whether it's annual operating resources or facility support. We don't have to be the nicest house in the neighborhood. We don't have to be at number one financially in the league, but it is reasonable to expect that we can outperform resources and be in the top third and win championships. That's absolutely reasonable. The middle third becomes a little bit more of a challenge, and the bottom third is, is, uh, there are some real issues with that, but, uh, overall we've been in a pretty good spot. We're gonna continue to grow and, and build and align resources to championship level expectations. Speaker 1 00:24:18 And I'm gonna tell on you a little bit. Hopefully you don't, you won't mind. So during the interview process, um, Kevin, um, sent, um, his sort of roadmap of what he is thinking that we should be do here at Wichita State. He sent us a document, all of us got it, FedEx to us the night before. Um, we interviewed him. Um, and, uh, what that demonstrated to me, and I think to the committee, is that you'd actually done some thinking about what will make shocker athletics successful. Can you just in a few minutes talk about what you're, uh, implementing now? You've said a few things, but if you could kind of put it into, uh, one little place for everybody, that'd be Speaker 2 00:24:59 Great. Absolutely. I think the first and foremost, we've gotta have a vision. And vision starts with your values. So, um, what we sent to the advisory committee and to you was the, uh, the shocker way. And there's three primary components to the shocker way. The first is our core values. Core values for it is really who we are, and it's the lens through which we make decisions and we behave within athletics. And that's, uh, character integrity, knowledge stewardship, and competitive excellence. Understanding right from wrong, aligning your behavior to that understanding, um, understanding that we are constantly in a pursuit of knowledge and that we maintain coachable spirits, that we take great care of the resources to who much is given, much is expected. So core values really is the who we are. What we do, um, is we develop young people in programs. So there's a student athlete development piece to the shocker way, and I believe firmly as an Olympic sports student athlete, we're developing our young people here as students first people, second players third, and then ultimately professionals. Speaker 2 00:26:01 I think any athletic director's gonna talk about doing it in the classroom and the community and on the quarter of the field. But for me, the true success is connecting our young people to jobs and understanding that the student athlete pathway is a developmental pathway to get young people to jobs and transform their families and do all those things. So that's the student athlete development piece. The third piece to the shocker way is the comprehensive broad based excellence. We've talked about aligning resources to expectations. When you align yourself in the top third of your league, uh, you have an expectation to win league championships. And really league Championships is the gateway to everything we want to do competitively. We want to represent this institution nationally in the NCAA tournament. We wanna make deep runs in the NCAA tournament, and we wanna be a top 100 program. And so all of the meetings and discussions and everything that we've had these first 80 days puts a lot of information into this funnel. And what comes out is our strategic objectives. Yeah. Um, and so we have strategic objectives for gpa, for community service, and for competitive excellence, and we're looking forward to getting going. Speaker 1 00:27:03 Well, it's amazing that you've been able to accomplish so much in 80 days. That's not a lot of days. Um, and I, and I appreciate your energy and your enthusiasm. Uh, everybody I'm hearing from is very pleased with what's going on in athletics and, um, looking forward to the, the, the season, you know, all of our sports, um, got a lot going on with volleyball and basketball, men's and women's and, and of course then the spring sports, and of course always golf and tennis, so That's right. Really excited about that. Um, looking forward to, uh, seeing the great things that you do with our, uh, athletic department and, and then helping support the university. So thank you so much, Kevin for being here today, and we will, uh, see around campus. Speaker 2 00:27:44 Sounds great. Go. Shockers Speaker 1 00:27:46 Athletics are a visible, valuable, and entertaining part of our university, and they advance our priority of making education accessible and affordable. Wichita state's coaches and teachers educate and develop young people in the classroom and during competition and practices. Say, so's scholarship fundraising helps. Many student athletes afford a college education. The student athletes connect with their fans through their competition and their time and the community, and some make Wichita their home. We invite you to visit our athletic venues to cheer for the shockers and support the student athletes in all of our sports who are here to learn, sharpen their athletic gifts, and prepare for a career. Join me on the next episode of Forward Together, where I'll sit down with Dr. Alicia Thompson, Superintendent for SD 2 59 and WSU Provost Shirley, the fever to talk about education in Kansas.