Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hello, and welcome to the Forward Together podcast. My guest today is Kim Moore, executive director of Workforce, professional and community education for Wichita State. Kim has been instrumental in developing and promoting our badges and digital credentialing. Not only has Kim created an infrastructure and framework at Wichita State for these micro credentials, but she's also a founding member of the one edtech trusted Microcredential coalition. Welcome to the Forward Together podcast, Kim. Good to see you. Thanks for stopping by the podcast and your willingness to talk through micro credentialing and all those details.
The listener probably doesn't know this, but you and I started working on these in 2015, is that correct?
[00:00:57] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: And maybe we'll have more time to talk about it, but it was interesting to put in place lots of challenges at the beginning, but it seems like we have a little bit more of a cadence that's working and we've refined it, as you know, and you'll talk more about, but the listeners will be interested to know that really, this is to help workforce and grow workforce, grow talent, to fill the gaps of skills that employers need from their employees, or even employers need themselves as well. So looking forward to having the conversation about this. It's something that is near and dear to my heart, because back in the day when we started working together on this, we really didn't know what we were doing. But I think we've actually latched onto something, and, of course, you have helped us move that forward in so many different ways, looking forward to seeing what you have to say. So, to start, can you briefly explain to our audience what is a micro credential, or what is micro credentialing and how Wichita state's badge program in particular fits into that? But if you could talk about it more generally and maybe start there and then go to what we're doing mostly on the campus.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: So, microcredentials, what are micro credentials? That's a good question.
[00:02:21] Speaker C: That varies, really, among institutions. But at Wichita State, we have had.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Micro credentials in the form of badges.
[00:02:30] Speaker C: Like you said, since 2015. Nationally, badges have been around since about 2012, with the open badge standard coming around in 2014. So we were in 2015, just three years into the process, when we dived into, as one of the early adopters of the open badge platform. So what is a badge? At Wichita State, a badge is a short course, a credit course of one credit hour or less. It is graded on a pass fail, BG badge granted, or NBG no badge granted. It is part of a student's permanent academic record, goes on their academic transcript at Wichita State. So there's a record of it. Unlike other continuing education, where oftentimes we lose certificates or we lose proof. You will never lose proof of a micro credential because it will always exist here in the registrar's office.
We use open educational resources, so there's no textbook cost involved, so we keep the cost very low. And students can begin a badge at the beginning of a semester or any time up until 20 days prior to the end of the semester. So there's a lot of flexibility. They're all online. The coursework is available 24/7 so they're really designed as skill based education for the working adult that has obligations of family and careers and other outside activities. So it's the type of education that you can get in modules.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: It's chunked into very small bytes, and so that you can safely upskill or reskill in a very short period of time. And then when you're done, you're issued a digital credential, which we call a badge that you can share on social media, and you can also share it with your employer. And it lists very specific skills that we have validated that you have attained through the educational process at Wichita State.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: And some of them, and this was an example of, this was like that first badge that we worked on, the care populations badge. And just for the listeners, that badge was created for several different reasons. Nurses in the rural areas of Kansas needed some content to help their health departments get accredited. So we wanted to think about how we could solve that. Many of the nurses and health departments in the rural areas of the state were at the associate degree level, and there's been, over the years, a push to move those individuals to bachelor's degree levels. That content would help serve that purpose, and then they also need continuing education as a nurse. And so it was really attractive content to think about putting together because it helped allow all of that to happen. And I think there was a series of six badges under that care populations. We still have that. That we offer.
[00:05:36] Speaker C: We have over 300 registrations this fall.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:39] Speaker C: In that particular, after nine years, still going strong.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
Those six badges stack up into a course that the nurses or whoever enrolls in them can use that as credit to count towards, in this case, the nurses to count towards their nursing degree. So to me, that kind of a badge or a badge that is a recognized credential that business or industry needs are what we're talking about here. We've had less success over time developing badges and just any old kind of topic. We kind of opened it up for that, and it just really didn't pan out. Could you talk a little bit more about that?
[00:06:19] Speaker C: So in the beginning, we requested that each dean submit two proposals every fall for badges, and that included fine arts, the College of Applied Studies, all of them engineering. And we. It was really up to the faculty to decide. It was faculty driven. So that has changed since.
It has evolved, let's say. So that now all badges are developed in partnership with employers. And that is key to the success of badges, because when we look at needing to develop a badge, we talk to employers, especially HR, the training managers, the hiring managers.
We also ask people, people that accredit or provide continuing education for licensed professionals.
We talk to people, the faculty members. It's really a group of individuals that gets together that sets down and figures out, really the skills and competencies that are needed to perform a job. And it's not up to any one person, but it's really a coalition, a partnership of individuals that have a stake in the process so that we know what we're developing is really meeting employer needs.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And what we learned over time, as you know, that lots of other topics came forward, and we spent a lot of time and effort developing badges, but they, in whatever x topic, but they didn't get a lot of enrollment in some cases, and they just weren't really effective at delivering a skill that the broader community needed.
That's why that's so important. So we talked about the care populations badge series, or six badges, and that's where we kind of got our start. But give me some other examples of other badges that we have that we're offering at the university.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: So I'm really excited about a badge series that we started about two years ago, and we call them the DSP badges. DSP stands for direct support professionals, and these are people who work in the front lines with individuals that have intellectual and behavioral disabilities.
And typically, this is the type of person that has no formal education.
They have just been recruited into the profession, and there was no training available, low wages, no opportunity for advancement, so no career pathway. So in Kansas, there has been a wait list of ten years for services for people with disabilities, and the reason for that is a lack of providers.
So I took it on as a challenge that if we were going to make an impact, and a lot of universities will do business to business, I wanted to try tackling an entire job code within a profession, something that would have statewide impact. And the DSPs were perfect for that because there is a need across the state of Kansas, rural urbanization, small, large employers, everyone needs these type of employees. So in working with Interhab, our partners at Interhab, working with Sedgwick County Disability.
[00:09:38] Speaker C: Services, working with our faculty, and with.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Employers that have operations, large employers, small.
[00:09:48] Speaker C: Employers across the state, we were able to pull through job descriptions and job postings and pull out and identify the skills that were most important, that were most lacking in job applicants, and that we felt were needed for success in that profession. And so we forged ahead and we identified those skills. We had the employers validate our work every step of the way to make sure that we were on the right track. And then we had employer partners.
Believe there are twelve of them that are participating.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Goodwill Industries is one of them. Yes.
[00:10:28] Speaker C: They participated in what's known as a DSP plus apprenticeship through the Department of Commerce, and Goodwill is one of them.
[00:10:35] Speaker B: Goodwill sends all their new dsps through our badge program. That's a very good example of an organization. And then those individuals, there are eight badges in the series. They stack to three certificates, and each time a certificate is achieved, an employee gets a raise. So it provides financial incentive for employees to do the work necessary to earn the badge.
Because it's part of a registered apprenticeship, employers do get a stipend for participating, and they get a stipend per employee that they send through the program. So it's a really wonderful, wonderful opportunity. And we've had great success and feedback from our employers about how much this program has met in their efforts to recruit and retain employees.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: Yeah, and I actually was, I took a tour of goodwill industries. A lot of people think that Goodwill is just a thrift store, but, you know, that's just part of their business model, where they bring in resources through that to help support these populations and other kind of services that they provide. But anyway, I went on a tour of the local goodwill industries office headquarters, and they started talking about their DSP training program, and I said, I know all about that, and I know that we're providing that curriculum. So it's a really good example of how we could come together as an institution with industry, other kinds of offices that support this population, come up with a solution. And so thank you so much for working on that project. And I believe that it was initially sort of the brainchild of Alan Schmidt, who was a former regent, a Kansas border regent who lives out in western Kansas and has been working in the long term care arena over a number of years and saw this as a need and others that he'd been working with along the way, a good example of the board of regents pushing forward an initiative, and we were able to partner on that.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: Yes, and because of the success of the badges, other funders have come to us, and right now we have a grant to expand the training to DSP frontline supervisors. So building upon the next level of employees to provide them with badges. And we also received another grant to expand it to those that provide services for the elderly in hospice, nursing home, and other residential facilities. So the work continues on. There's a lot of excitement about it, and I'm very proud that we are able to provide this to our community in an effort to help fill those huge gaps that exist in services.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Exactly.
So you're also working on a new project through WF Frank Barton School of Business grant from the Charles Koch foundation.
Tell us a little bit more about that program and what your involvement is.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: So these will actually be our very first micro credentials. They're going to be different than the badges because they don't fit the definition of a badge at Wichita State. So they are actually a cohort of individuals that will are applying to the Barton school to participate in the program, and they will attend this. Unlike badges, where people attend on their own schedule and it's all online, these will be in person classes, and they will attend as a cohort at designated days and times.
There are two micro credentials that will be awarded. There's the career readiness, and there are the entrepreneurial badges, or micro credentials, and.
[00:14:28] Speaker C: They will not get those until they complete.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: There are two parts to each of those.
[00:14:33] Speaker C: So there are two career readiness micro credentials, and two entrepreneur micro credentials.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: At the end.
[00:14:39] Speaker C: In the spring, they'll take one in the fall, one in the spring. In the spring, after successful completion, they will be awarded a micro credential based on the mastery of, again, skills and the demonstration of competency.
And so this is very exciting because it is for designed for people in underserved populations, again, that have had no career pathway, and so this project will provide them with credentials. There are employer partners that are participating, that have guaranteed employment to those individuals that participate in the program.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: It's just another great example.
Earlier I mentioned that you're a founding member of one ed tech trusted ed microcredential coalition. It's a mouthful, which is a national organization, and it's kind of funny. Not really. Just Kim and I have worked together for a number of years, and because of what we've been doing at Wichita State, you have been found out. This program, people find out about it and so you have been going to speak at various conferences, and you'd come back to me and say, well, someone else asked me to speak at a conference. Should I do that? I said, yeah, you should do that. Share this expertise. This is what's going to make this better. And that's led for you to be selected to be on this coalition.
Talk about that. What are they doing? What kind of standards are they setting, and how is this going to be beneficial to us going forward?
[00:16:13] Speaker C: Yes, certainly.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: So I am a board member of one edtech. I was elected to a four year term last January.
That is the organization, as a nonprofit that is setting the standards for badges and micro credentials worldwide. We're in 32 countries. We're in all the states. We have over 1000 members that are part of one ed tech.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: And they, individual members, necessarily, but institutional.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: Members, institutional members, like we are an institutional member here.
They are setting standards from open badges, comprehensive learner records, privacy and security of data, just a number of different areas.
[00:17:00] Speaker C: That they have set standards related to.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Digital credentials, and with the idea of making digital credentials portable and making them recognized as having value and credibility.
So the trusted microcredential coalition grew out of one, edtech, because we really have been operating in the wild, wild west of digital credentials and badging. Every university, as I mentioned earlier in our conversation, is doing it differently. And so, people, there's really been no way to determine if a badge has value or not. So as a coalition, we have classified.
[00:17:46] Speaker C: Badges now into three different classifications. One is a badge of recognition. So, for example, let's say you go to a conference and you get a badge.
That's what it means.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: You went to a conference and you.
[00:18:01] Speaker A: Can put that on your social media. You can.
[00:18:03] Speaker C: So that's an example of a recognition.
Then there is knowledge. So you go to a workshop and you take a test, a pretest, post test. Okay? Then you are successful and you are awarded a badge. That's a badge of knowledge. You demonstrated through a success on your exam that you have knowledge. Then there's the highest level of credentials and that's applied. So that is where you have went.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: You have taken the test, but you also have demonstrated through a project, a written assignment, a demonstration, maybe a video that you make demonstrating that skill, that you actually now have the competency. You have achieved a level of competency in that badge. So you have evidence, evidence of achievement. And so we've classified badges in those three ways, and then we've developed a framework so that to be a trusted micro credential you have to have one. You have to identify who's issuing it, who accredited who. Our accreditation agency is here, a rubric of how we score assignments, the identification of the skills that a person is learning, any endorsements that we might have by other organizations, like some of our colleges are accredited. So abit in engineering, perhaps they've endorsed some badges. So there are a lot of criteria, the duration of the badge or the micro credential. How long does it take to earn it? What kind of evidence is there? So there's a lot now that's going to be going into micro credentials and badges to determine if they can be trusted. They're going to have to have a lot of evidence, and then hopefully, if somebody meets the very high standards, they will be designated as trusted. So what's exciting is WSU, we were the first to sign on. We are the first member and founding member of the trusted Micro Credential Coalition and this bureau, micro credentials that we.
[00:20:19] Speaker C: Just talked about, those, I submitted those with the School of Business, and we.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Have received provisional, at a provisional award of the first micro credential in the.
[00:20:32] Speaker C: World that will be trusted. The first trusted.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: I didn't even know that.
[00:20:37] Speaker C: Yes, that's something that I've been working on. And so WSU will have the very first trusted micro credential in the entire world. And the only thing that's holding us back is, as usual, we're ahead of the technology.
So I have arranged, and I have worked out of an understanding with a tech provider, and they have prioritized our project, and they are currently working on the framework and adopting the framework so that we can enter all that data into it, and we will be ready by January.
The very first trusted micro credential in the world will be here, and we will expect a big release, press release on that. So that's very, very exciting that we have been on the cutting edge. And I'll be talking about this project at a number of conferences coming up across the country in the coming months.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: This is just really great news. And I just want to just remind everybody that, you know, a lot of people think, okay, a badge, micro credential, it's just, you know, giving, you know, stamp of approval or whatever. It's much more involved in that. And one of the reasons why I think Wichita State has been really set up to get to this point is because we started ten years ago, almost working with the faculty, identifying what a micro credential is on our campus, what a badge is, what a certificate is, how things stack and took that through our faculty senate. It was a lot of hard work, as you remember, but those kind of things have set us up to be able to be at the table, to be the first trusted micro credential in the world. And it's so important for, especially here in Kansas, for all of us to be thinking along the same lines and get behind this effort so we can actually move these initiatives forward. If we don't do it, someone else is going to do it, and it's more likely it can be someone outside of higher education and we won't have any control over it.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: And already there's been a movement. Large corporations have grown impatient with higher education and how slow sometimes our systems are. And so the IBMs of the world have gone out and developed their own credentials and quite successfully. And we will see more and more of that if we as educators do not get on board and we do not listen to employers as to what their needs are, ways that we can partner with them to meet those needs.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: So what do you see as the future here at Wichita State and nationally?
[00:23:19] Speaker B: So what I see, and there's already some movement towards it, is that universities are going to have to relook at curriculum. So at universities we have standard, for the most part, three credit hour courses.
[00:23:33] Speaker C: Are graded on an a through f scale. They're semester long courses.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: They might be online, they might be in person, but when a person gets done with the class, they get a grade and they get a grade on their transcript and they go to apply.
[00:23:48] Speaker C: For a job and they show their.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Transcript and no one knows what you did to get that.
[00:23:52] Speaker C: That's what it means. So, Rick, you got an a in us government.
What did you learn? What skills did you.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Are you asking a rhetorical question?
[00:24:03] Speaker B: It's a rhetorical question, but most, most students can't.
[00:24:07] Speaker C: They don't know. Well, I went, I sat there, I did good on my tests, turned in all my papers, badges. We're going to have to go back through our curriculum and we're going to have to add every course, identify the skills and what a student has learned in those courses, and they're going to have to be able to articulate that.
A transcript, which we're going to call something new WSU is getting, is a comprehensive learner record where students are going.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: To be able to articulate their learning and show their learning both in the classroom and outside of the classroom.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Extracurricular activities?
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Yes. Extracurricular internships. Any applied learning volunteer experiences? Student leadership positions. Employers are going to start getting a total picture of someone, not just that they got an a or b or a c, but they're going to know what skills, what leadership skills, what communication skills, all of the soft skills that a student learns both inside and outside the classroom. And so higher education is going to have to adapt and look at, okay, we're going to have to start identifying skills in every course. We're going to have to look at the way students are being taught to do resumes and apply for jobs. And I, we're going to have to make sure we include everything, all the learning experiences on that comprehensive learner record and that we move as an organization.
[00:25:36] Speaker C: Past the comprehensive learner record to the.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Learner employment record and then to a.
[00:25:41] Speaker C: Digital resume, like a smart resume, so that students can share that with employers digitally for the hiring process.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: And, you know, we've had a lot. You might want to talk a little bit more about that. Why what you're doing at one edtech and the comprehensive learning record are so important in that relationship. We have lots of starts and stops around that, and I think we're now all on the same page that we need to do have this learner record that fits all these parameters, which you just mentioned, again, has to be very intentional, well thought out, and everybody needs to understand it across campus. So just real briefly talk about that and the importance of how those two, the trusted learner credential and then comprehensive learner record, how those relate to one another.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: So when a tech does have a standard for the comprehensive learner record as well as the trusted micro credential, so they really do go hand in hand. The comprehensive learner record is a way to capture all learning included. What's trusted, and not every credential will be trusted or needs to be trusted, but what's trusted and what just are other credentials that somebody achieves during their lifetime? It's something, a record. A student will always own the student, when they leave Wichita State, they will leave with their comprehensive learner record. It goes with them. And they can continue to add to it the credentials that they earn from the university and outside of the university.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: When they graduate afterwards.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's theirs forever. And so that is going to be very, very beneficial. And the fact is that we, everything we do at Wichita State is developed perenna per the standards, and we only work with individuals and companies that are certified to the standards, because if we don't, we will not have credentials. We will not be issuing credentials that are interoperable and portable. So what I want is when somebody earns a credential from Wichita state, they can take it anywhere they go to.
[00:27:58] Speaker C: Washington state and get and apply for a job.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Their credential is going to have value and meaning and credibility and everybody know.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: What that is and everybody's going to.
[00:28:08] Speaker C: Know what it is because we're part.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Of the standard organization. So all of the thousand plus members of one edtech that are out there developing credentials, we're all doing it per the standards. So we all understand what that means and the value of it.
[00:28:25] Speaker C: And we can trust that if another institution issues a trusted micro credential and.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: They'Re a part, part of one edtech.
[00:28:33] Speaker C: That we can accept that credential here and that our credentials in turn will be accepted at other institutions. So that's very, very the standards and what the credentials that somebody earns here and the fact that they're on a comprehensive learner record that is shared other places is very, very important and gives extreme value to the work that we're.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Doing and validity to the whole.
[00:28:58] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely.
[00:28:59] Speaker A: So I said, I misspoke a little bit earlier.
We're talking about trusted credentials and then the comprehensive learner record. I said, trusted learner record. I confided those two. So just want to make sure that that was clear. Well, one last question before we go.
We have hundreds of different individuals that enroll in our badges throughout our academic year.
How would if someone wanted to do that or listening and think, hmm, I might want to try that, talking to someone in the hospital not too long ago about these badges, and they have a master's degree. And I said, we'll go look at that and see if there's anything that could help you further your job. If you wanted to brush up on some material, where would they go to find this out?
[00:29:44] Speaker B: We have a whole catalog of badges.
They can go to www.wichita.edu badges. And there you will find our badge catalog. And you bring up a very good point. Not only are our badges are you awarded college credit for successful completion, but if you are a professional, a licensed professional, many times you can use the badge. It counts towards hours, contact hours towards relicensure. So it's always a very good thing to check if you're in need of some hours for relicensure, give our badges a look. They're all online. They're all available. Twenty four seven. And if you have questions, our contact information is also on the website. So just give us a call. We'd be glad to help you.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: And it's fairly inexpensive in the big scheme of things.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: It is. Most badges are between 100 and $200, and I should mention some of our badges are even for graduate credit. So we have a real variety. We can meet a variety of needs here. And if you're out there and we don't have a badge for something in your area, feel free to give us a call, because we always are interested in what the need is in the marketplace.
[00:30:57] Speaker C: And if there is enough need and.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: We can document that, then we're happy to look into developing digital credentials that can.
[00:31:05] Speaker C: Can meet those needs.
[00:31:06] Speaker A: And you said earlier that one of the things before we had a comprehensive learner record and the way to document things, we were worried that individuals would complete a badge and not have anything to show for and not be able to verify. And so that's why we decided that we would start four credit badges. It's always going to be on the transcript.
If it counts towards a degree or a certificate at our institution, it would automatically populate into that degree audit for those individuals. But I think that is a unique thing for our particular badge programs. Is it goes on our transcript for our students and not seeing that really much across the United States?
[00:31:54] Speaker B: No. And that is very important.
[00:31:56] Speaker C: I had a call a while back from a woman in France that had participated in one of our non credit education programs back in 1985, and she wanted proof that doesn't exist.
We change systems. We don't have a transcript in the non credit area like we have in the credit for credit area. So this is very, very important point that you make is that this information exists forever as part of your permanent academic record. So, you know, that's key when you're out looking for a job, that you can demonstrate that you have. You have these skills. And even if you earned the skills five years ago or ten years ago, we have the proof right here that you're going to need to show employers.
[00:32:44] Speaker A: And an additional layer and sort of safety for this is the comprehensive learner record that will be available in perpetuity.
Well, it's good to talk to you. Thank you for the work you've done in this. I so much appreciate it. I think it's cutting edge and keeping us on the leading edge of this work, and it's what we do as an institution.
Our number one priority is affordability and access, and that's access to everybody in any form of education that they're interested in getting. Besides just coming here for a degree program, we have other kinds of programs, like badges and other micro credentials. So thank you so much for being a part of that journey, and we look forward to seeing how this transpires over the next several years.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: Thank you for letting me share a little bit about the work that we're doing with micro credentials.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: You're welcome. Thank you for being here and thank you all for listening. Please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to the Forward together podcasts. Go shockers.
Sponsorship for the Forward Together podcast is provided by Scott Rice, office works and the Shocker store.
Additional thanks to Nair AMp, WSU, carpentry shop and gocreate.
