Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Hello, shocker Nation. Welcome to the December, 2022 edition of Forward Together podcast. Today I'm here with one of the driving forces behind the evolution and advancement of research at W Tuf State University, Dr. John Toma. Since 2004, Dr. Tom has grown the university's aerospace engineering r and d portfolio from 20 million in 2004 to more than 190 million today through his work as Senior Vice President for Industry and Defense, and executive director of Wichita State's acclaim, national Institute for Aviation Research. Dr. Toum has been integral in the development and expansion of the innovation campus, na R'S Digital Twin program, and the rapid growth of Naar Work's MRO program among so many other things. John, it's good to see you today. Thanks for coming in to do the podcast. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:00:55 Pleasure to be
Speaker 1 00:00:56 Here. You know, uh, we've known each other for a long time. Yeah. We started, uh, actually the same month back in 1994. That's right. Tell the listeners, uh, your journey here at Wichita State so far.
Speaker 2 00:01:08 Sure. So, uh, I graduated from, uh, West Virginia University. Uh, this has been my first and only job, so I grad, I did all three degrees at West Virginia. And then, uh, I got offered a job to come out to be a professor in aerospace engineering at Wichita State in 1994. So I took that job and haven't looked back since.
Speaker 1 00:01:29 And you became, uh, along the way more recently, you became, uh, the director, executive director of naar and, um, other different kind of roles. Tell us a little bit more about some of the things that you have, uh, started to, uh, supervise over the years and, and what you've been doing.
Speaker 2 00:01:48 Sure. Well, back in 1994, I guess I was the first experiment of a faculty member, uh, in a joint, uh, role with naar. So I split my time between the, the College of Engineering and Naar and, and, and Naar. I did the, uh, I did a lot of research in composites lab, and then I became the director of the composites lab soon after that. And, um, about in 99, 2000 timeframe, uh, my teaching, my research became so, uh, uh, it, it took so much time that getting in the classroom was harder, and then I became the r and d director, uh, then the executive director, and then went on from that to be the, uh, vice President of research when Dr. Barto was here. And then, uh, um, then that role has now kept growing. Uh, of course, you know, we started the Division of Industry and Defense, so I'm now the Senior Vice President of Industry and Defense.
Speaker 1 00:02:45 Yeah. And so, just so the listeners understand what NA R stands for, national Institute for Aviation Research, tell us how that started. Um, what was, uh, the key things that happened along the way and what's its, what's its purpose?
Speaker 2 00:02:58 Sure. And actually started in the early eighties, uh, when we were looking to support, you know, Wichita's always been known ever since the forties as the air capital of the world. And as, as, as that began to grow, um, of course, Wichita State being in, in the, in the heart of Wichita, how can we support the air capital of the world better? And, uh, why don't we have a center of excellence in aviation? And that became NARA as we know it. Uh, so, uh, entered, actually, they wrote a proposal. It wa it was turned down as a proposal for the National Science Foundation. A lot of people don't know that it was an unfunded proposal. And I always tell faculty members, the unfunded proposal just means it's not funded right now. So that I'm glad they didn't turn it down. Uh, and they kept working at that. And, uh, with a lot of help from people like Senator Bob Dole at that time and, and other people from around the nation, we, uh, we established that nier on the campus.
Speaker 1 00:04:00 So the Center for Excellence, the purpose of it is, is, the way I understand it is instead of aircraft companies here in Wichita developing their own, uh, labs, research r and d kinds of space, this served a purpose that all of them can use. Is that
Speaker 2 00:04:17 Absolutely. And, and then a lot of people don't understand the origins of that as well. And it actually, the, it originated or originated back in 1943, uh, where Walter Beach and Clyde Sussna, both of them wanted to have a wind tunnel. Uh, they, they didn't use it continually. So they agreed that, that let's, let's develop one where we could use it together and, but where we're gonna put it, we need a Switzerland type place to put it. And they chose the University of Wichita at that time to put it. So, and it was actually Walter Beach who, uh, gave $80,000 to the University of Wichita to put the Walter Beach Wind tunnel here. So that heritage has always been there of developing a, a laboratory, an environment where companies can, can come and, uh, research their products.
Speaker 1 00:05:08 Yeah. And you can still see that wind tunnel. It's the original wind tunnel there. It's, of course been updated and upgraded over the years.
Speaker 2 00:05:16 It's funny, it took, uh, $80,000 to build it back in 1943 to 48, and it took me 7 million just to replace some components of it. <laugh>. Yeah. So inflation's real
Speaker 1 00:05:26 Well, one of the things that, um, has happened over the years, um, with the development of the innovation campus. I, I'd like for you to talk just a little bit about that. Is, that's really driven research, uh, growth on campus, particularly in aerospace, which you are, um, actively involved in. Can you talk about that a little bit? Um, we just recently also got a, a build back better regional challenge grant from, uh, department of Commerce, uh, economic Development Administration for 51 million mm-hmm. <affirmative>. How has all that come together over the last several years?
Speaker 2 00:05:58 Sure. So if, if, if you remember back in 2014, that was still a golf course. And so I think in November of 2014 is when we took it offline as being a golf course. And, um, at that point, I was, Dr. Barto had me over of what can we do with that? And, and everyone was talking about building a research park. So he, I went out and studied research parks and, uh, you know, there's over 180 of them attached to universities across the, the United States. So we looked at a couple besting class, uh, and went and visited them. And then we decided to do something totally different. Uh, is, uh, again, getting back to our heritage of, and, and I've heard you say this many times as, uh, being a public urban serving university, what's, what are we best at? It's solving problems. And one of the problems they, they had was, uh, start time for new graduates of this, this indirect startup time where they became productive and how can we change that? And I think that's really the, the heartbeat of the, of the innovation campus. And it's really the heartbeat of the university is solving problems. And, um, how that then became let's, how we can solve problems more effectively is having the companies on campus with us. So that's, that's how we kind of started that. His, you know, with, with Airbus being the first one, and then it just dominoed after that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:07:23 And there, we almost have 50 companies either headquartered or have offices on our campus, uh, working with our students, over 6,000 students earning about 28 million a year. Phenomenal success. And, um, you know, just giving students that opportunity early on to get experience and then also money in their pocket to help them support their education.
Speaker 2 00:07:45 And as we, as they went around, I think they, as other universities have came to see what we've done, I think that was a unique thing, is having the companies on campus, which enables the students. Um, they, uh, they, I've always told people they graduate Wichita State with, with not only a diploma, but a resume mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and yeah. And you asked me about the build back better, you know, that was just a, as we were looking around post, post Covid 19 recovery and, and President Biden was, Hey, how, how can I give the acon the country an economy shot in the arm? That's when he developed this program. And, um, there were 529 people that applied for this grant. Uh, it was down selected to 60 across the country. Uh, I think there were nine from Kansas. We were the only ones selected, uh, from Kansas.
Speaker 2 00:08:37 And, uh, we were fortunate enough to win it one outta 21. Um, and ours is really focused on, if you look at the air capital world, and what we really did good to become the air capital world is manufacturing. Uh, we, we, we were, we were in the industry 2.0, uh, which really brought in electricity and, and industrialization of how we make something. And then 3.0 with robotics, and now even with the smart factory on campus, industry 4.0, and I think the build back better grant was how can we really take that industry 4.0 from a manufacturing standpoint and look at all the things of digital engineering, the digital transformation that is also, uh, one of the, uh, the underlying threads of the innovation campus as well, how we can use that in manufacturing. So one of our themes was additive manufacturing, uh, especially for small and medium sized companies, that seems to be, well, it's cool, but we can never afford to do it.
Speaker 2 00:09:43 We can never afford to be trained on it. And so I think the, the, the build back better program that we have is really focused towards how we can help these, these small and medium sized companies compete in the world of advanced manufacturing and, and the technologies, because you used to be an artisan came in and made a part, now it's ones and zeros. All the parts start out as ones and zeros in a digital world, and the machine makes the part. So yeah, I, I think being at the forefront of, of, of workforce training in that, and that's what that center's all about.
Speaker 1 00:10:14 And so the point here that me asking you that question is that we had a vision back in 2012 to take over a golf course, put some infrastructure in place, you also along the way, uh, na our labs have expanded, you know, north of the town, south of town, I think you say 1.5 million square feet. That's great of, of space now that we have research labs. And that's really attracted a lot of other interest in our research awards are just skyrocketing. We're just surpassed 270 million this last fiscal year. Can you talk a little bit more about, um, how this infrastructure that we've been putting in place over the years in innovation campus is attracted industry partners, department of Defense, other entities?
Speaker 2 00:10:59 Sure. And you know, I, I hate to go back to this, but <laugh>, it's really as simple as listening and solving problems. Yeah. I mean, and when you listen to a customer, they say, well, we really wish you had this type of capability or that type of capability, and we really want our students to be educated in this type of technology or that type of, it's, it's listening and helping them solve problems. And I, I mean, I know I'm oversimplifying that, but that, that's really what it is. I mean, the Department of of Defense, when they came to us with problems of readiness, which I, I know I see these models here as well. Problems of readiness. It was just solving a problems. How do I get apart onto an aircraft?
Speaker 1 00:11:38 Yeah. Yeah. So that brings us to the next part of this program. And those of you who are watching this can see some aircraft, uh, here on this table. And I, I want you to step us through, um, uh, what you're doing with this, this aircraft, why it's important. What problem were you trying to solve and who are you trying to solve it for? Sure. So where do you wanna start? Which one of these? Sure.
Speaker 2 00:11:59 I'll start with the B one, but I'll, I'll, I'll kind of preface it of again, solving the problem for the, for the Department of Defense is, uh, if you look at our aircraft, we, we don't build new aircraft at the rates we did many years ago. Uh, so what's that mean is we have to use our current fleet of aircraft longer. And it's not only aircraft, it's our current vehicles as well. Um, so the, the Department of Defense, um, they, they knew this was a problem. And, you know, being, being one of the most lethal nations on the face of the earth, I mean, you can't be very lethal if your aircraft don't fly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, so they were looking at it from the standpoint of what is one of the problems of that's keeping our readiness level down? And, and the governor Accountability office, the ga, they did a report on this, and, and this is back in 2018, and part of that was, uh, diminishing manufacturing source.
Speaker 2 00:12:57 So the people who made the plane no longer existed and parts obsolescence, even if they made the plane, they're no longer making it, and they're not making those parts anymore. So that was really the, the fundamental thread of the digital twin is solving that problem. How can I get, if, if the DOD needs a part, how can I get the part made? And, uh, it was a conversation between, uh, myself and Dr. Roper. Dr. Will Roper, he was, uh, head of the strategic capabilities office at that time, and it was actually in Senator Moran's office that, uh, we were around a conference table in Senator Moran's office that he asked me the question is, you know, readiness? Do you think you can do a digital twin of a whole aircraft? And I, and I told him, I said, I think so <laugh>, I think so, uh, so, um, that then he funded us and our first aircraft was an F 18, and that that was for the Marine Corps. And then it led directly to this, this aircraft right here, which was We
Speaker 1 00:13:55 Should, why don't you take that and, um, point out to folks what that
Speaker 2 00:14:00 Is. So this is the B one bomber, and they call it the B one Lancer, B one B Lancer. And, and
Speaker 1 00:14:05 It looks small here, but it's gigantic. I, I've seen it, I've seen it go down the highway before.
Speaker 2 00:14:11 So, um, and, and, and for, for those of you who don't know, they, if they ever come to see Rick in his office, you're gonna see these models. So I make sure he has them in his office so he can tell the story. But I'll tell the story of, of once we got done with the F 18, that was such a success, that that's when the Air Force came and said, well, we, we've got problems with, with our aircraft as well. And we went through the number one and number two problem, and both of them are setting here. The number one problem at that time was the B one B bomber, as, uh, the readiness levels have fallen below right around 50%. And so that means of the aircraft that we had, only 50% of 'em were able to fly, fly. And then you look at, from a training standpoint, and this aircraft, uh, um, they were gonna reduce the numbers down to 45. So we only had 45 aircraft in the nation's arsenal of B one bombers, and at a, at a readiness level of 50%. So that's really the, the focus that we had here. And if you remember, if you look back in history, this, this, this particular aircraft was made by Rockwell Collins, then it was taken over, which was no longer in existence. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yeah. Taken over by Boeing. And then you only have 45 of them that are in the existing fleet. So, uh,
Speaker 1 00:15:27 So you mentioned digital twining, and that's what you're working on with that particular, what does that mean for the listeners who don't know a lot about this? What are you doing with that aircraft?
Speaker 2 00:15:37 Sure. Um, so the digital twin, I mean, it means a lot of things to different people. But in a, if, if I simplify that this plane was designed on a, on paper, so if I need to make a part, you have to go to a paper drawing and, and decode that drawing, which was, was, was done many, many, many years ago. And you have to decode that drawing to make a single part. And that was really what the hold up was, is somebody didn't wanna decode that drawing, which is a rather complicated drawing, and they call it the source of truth for a part and then make only one or two parts. So they wouldn't, basically, it would end up in a no bid situation, even for the federal government that said, I'm willing to pay you anything for the part, they only need two of them.
Speaker 2 00:16:25 So two parts would cost as many as a thousand parts. So, but if we could change that drawing to a digital file and, uh, then make it become ones and zeros again. And would you Then we asked the people that said that would no bid it, would you bid that part? At that point they said, of course I would. So we had to go through each and every part of the aircraft, literally each and every part, and change from a paper drawing to a digital drawing. And that's where our students really came in, is teaching our students to, to do that at a, uh, a lot of times they graduate college, and then they go back and get trained on that. So doing that at, at the high school and the early college levels is really, it's a differentiator for our students.
Speaker 1 00:17:14 Yeah. And for those of you who are trying to get your head wrapped around this sort, are taking every piece of that aircraft apart and digitizing it, they actually have this, uh, machine that scans every part of it. Yes. And then they bring it into a app, a software application, and further manipulate it. Um, it's pretty impressive. Um, so let's move on. We got three other aircraft, so I'm going to give this one to you and scoop that one out of the way so you can talk about this helicopter.
Speaker 2 00:17:43 This was the next one. Um, of course, that, that was a Air Force aircraft and then the United States Army, uh, they said that they have the same issues as well. So people give the credit to the United States Air Force of having the most aircraft. Actually, that's the wrong, you're, you're incorrect. Who has the most flying aircraft? That's the United States Army. And they actually, if you add up all the aircraft that they, uh, the Air Force, the Marine Corps, and the Navy, they still don't reach the level of the army. So the Blackhawk helicopter, which many people have seen, it's the, uh, 60, uh, they, they make, uh, um, right now flying, it's the Lima, the Mike, and the Victor versions of those. So they were, there's all, there's over 2100, uh, Lima helicopters out there. So that's the, that's the, the make is, uh, U eight 60 Lima.
Speaker 2 00:18:41 And again, they were having the same problems of, uh, it's not in production anymore. Se Corki does not make this helicopter anymore, but they have, we have 2100 in the fleet that they're, they're not re retire anytime soon. So again, how do I get parts for it? Um, so did the same thing we did with the B one, but again, supporting it from a rotary wing and with large numbers mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, and this one we actually did with seki. Um, so Seki was a partner in this one because they didn't have the time or to go back and change all those paper drawings into digital files as well.
Speaker 1 00:19:16 And so, uh, we're just talking about the blades, right?
Speaker 2 00:19:19 That No, we're talking about the whole helicopter.
Speaker 1 00:19:21 The the whole helicopter.
Speaker 2 00:19:22 Okay. Yes. And then during that, you mentioned the blades, but during the process, um, they approached us with another problem of, uh, readiness for helicopter blades. And so we did a, we did a special program just for, just for the blades of the, these are composite blades that are on, uh, the Black Hawk and the Apache as well. And, uh, every 200 hours these blades have to come off and they have to be inspected. And it, and it was creating a log jam. And we create with, with all of our principles that you see on the innovation campus of digital engineering and smart factory principles, we were able to build what we call Jarvis. It's a, it's a automated rotor blade repair cell. So, and it's, it's, right now we, we tested it here, and it's right now in Corpus Christi, Texas, where they do, uh, depot work on these helicopters.
Speaker 1 00:20:13 And so that's keeping them in service. Um, I don't have this problem of not being able to fly. Correct. Um, and I think you told me at one point they do have another technique they coulda used, but it takes,
Speaker 2 00:20:27 It's all by hand and
Speaker 1 00:20:28 It takes six months versus
Speaker 2 00:20:30 It actually, it takes, uh, the fastest they could do it. I mean, some people will get different numbers, but we were around 36 days for one blade, and then when, when Jarvis takes over, we were hoping to get that down to two days.
Speaker 1 00:20:43 Wow. Yeah. Okay. Let's scoot that one over. And let's go to this, this next one here. So what are we looking at there?
Speaker 2 00:20:49 This is, a lot of people will know this aircraft. This is a, uh, uh, an F 16 fighting Falcon, but the pilots like to call it the Viper. Uh, there's over 900 of these in our inventory for the United States Air Force. So it's a single engine, uh, airplane. Uh, but you've seen it in Iron Eagle, and it's been around for a long time. But, uh, this one is, we wanna fly out for a long time. Uh, there, there's, uh, if, if you look at this one, I think it'll still be flying in the years 2040 and 2050. Wow. So
Speaker 1 00:21:27 When did they come into service approximately? Oh,
Speaker 2 00:21:29 Uh, long time ago. It was seventies, probably. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:21:33 <affirmative>, so almost 80 years they wanted to fly,
Speaker 2 00:21:36 Or? Yes. And it's still performing very well. So this one, we, we did the digital twin, but this one was a little bit different because they said, not only do we want parts, but we wanted, we wanted to stretch this a little bit more and look at, uh, systems. So, um, like hydraulic systems, fuel systems, and software systems wiring. So I think that that's one of the fundamental changes that we did. If you look at our progression through our digital twins, this one, it'd be the first one that to do it from not only a structure side, but a a hydraulic side. So if you think about how many times you change your iPhone, I mean, this aircraft's got gone through a lot of, of upgrades with software and hardware inside it, but you need to know, do I have enough cooling for it? Do I have enough power for it? And so, and the only way they can do that is put it in there and try it. So what we wanna do is, can we do it digitally?
Speaker 1 00:22:32 So students are working on these, all, all these projects. So listeners, it's important for you to understand that not only are students, you know, learning in the classroom and our other labs are actually getting to do real hands on kinds of things to help solve this problem. Okay. So the last aircraft right over
Speaker 2 00:22:50 There, this one we just started, um, this is the, the, ah, 64 Apache, uh, there's about 800 of these in service. Um, and this is, uh, a two man gunship. Um, but again, same type of issues as they, they need parts for it, and there's no replacement for this right now. Uh, the replacement for this is, is called the, uh, future attack and reconnaissance aircraft. They call it farra, that's got to be named. So keeping this, keeping this aircraft flying, these 800 are also same mission, very important. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 00:23:24 <affirmative>. And, and are we doing the whole aircraft or just the rotors?
Speaker 2 00:23:29 We're doing the whole aircraft. We're, we're not doing the rotors and the engines on this one. We're, we're, we're doing structure.
Speaker 1 00:23:34 Okay. So I hope the listeners understand that what we're trying to do, or what you all are trying to do, your team's trying to do is help the military with sustainment of these aircraft. Absolutely. And it's a big issue for them. It's costly to design new aircraft all the time, and these are still useful. Um, but, uh, uh, they need help with maintaining them and, and servicing them and so forth. And
Speaker 2 00:24:02 I, I, I, I still think that the, one of the most special things that when we have a general comes in and or an admiral come in and they see what we're doing, it's hard to believe that you're taking every part of an aircraft apart with, with surgical procedure. So that's impressive. But when they walk away from Wichita State and they see students doing that, that's what, that's when they know where we live in the country that we live in, is they see college students doing this in an environment and learning things that's not really possible, learn in a textbook while they're in college. I mean, that's what really is makes them walk away proud.
Speaker 1 00:24:45 Yeah. And feeding that talent pipeline. Oh, absolutely. They're ready to, to go to work for companies that, you know, do related kind of work or even
Speaker 2 00:24:53 Nayar. And they want the, and and they want these, these people that are working on this, these students that are working on this, they want 'em to come back and work for the Army and the Air Force as well. Yeah. So civilian service. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:04 So this is phenomenal and there's a lot other projects that we could have talked about today. But before we end it, I just want to also have you just briefly talk about some of the other problems you're trying to solve for, uh, commercial aircraft or, or utilization of commercial aircraft like the, uh, Boeing 7 77 and MD 80, and just briefly talk about that.
Speaker 2 00:25:26 Sure. One of the, um, one of the things that we've always tried to do is, is, you know, and part of our mission is be an economic driver. And ever since Boeing military left in 2012, they left a lot of capability down there where they did mro, it's maintenance, repair, and overhaul for, for aircraft. And they primarily did it for military aircraft, but they left the infrastructure when they left in 2012. So, you know, being in the economic development arm of, of our city is how can we replace when Boeing left? And we've always tried to get an MRO here, and, um, after many, many times of working with Greater Wichita partnership, and we, we decided we were just going to grow our own. And we, and that's when Kansas Modification Center started, and they linked up with the university and with Nair, and we formed what we called Naer Works.
Speaker 2 00:26:25 And when they say, what, what does work stand for? It's where we put research to work. And what we did was we took the shell of what Boeing left and all the capability that was here, interjected a student learning environment in there. And, uh, we birth the MRO operation out of, out of that. So right now, um, if you look at what, um, what's happened with, with C is people quit flying overseas, but it actually, uh, so much so the dual air dual LA aircraft started getting parked in deserts. And at the same time, it's the perfect storm happen for, for what we're doing is people didn't wanna go out to the mall and shop anymore because they were home bound. And so they started ordering more and more packages
Speaker 1 00:27:12 Expecting them to be delivered the very next
Speaker 2 00:27:14 Day. Exactly. And so, so you, you have the perfect storm. As I have an aircraft parked on the ground, I have a customer wanting more delivery faster. And so you add those two together and changing that passenger aircraft into a cargo aircraft where they can hear your Amazon FedEx packages, UPS packages, and so there's a need for that. And so that's really what we're concentrating on. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:27:39 And I wanna just remind the listeners too, and with the projects that we just covered here, and the other ones that we didn't, but the modification work is employing hundreds of students,
Speaker 2 00:27:50 So oh, hundreds
Speaker 1 00:27:50 Of students. How many are you at right now in terms of approximately,
Speaker 2 00:27:54 Uh, all across all of Naira, I think I'm right around seven 50 to 800. Yeah. Students.
Speaker 1 00:27:59 And these aren't just, uh, students making photocopies or they're, they're actually doing work, working on computer software, digitizing some of this, um, work that for the digital twins and, and you know, also WSU tech students who are absolutely learning how to work on
Speaker 2 00:28:16 Aircraft. And one of the key things there is, is if you look at the portfolio of, of how many people work in Nayer, there's about 1600 and about eight, about half of those are students. And if you think about for every one student, they're paired up with somebody with a lot of experience of things that you don't really get in a textbook. Yeah. Uh, 30 years of experience passed on to somebody that, that young is invaluable.
Speaker 1 00:28:40 Yeah. So working with an engineer or computer scientist, scientists. Right, right. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:28:44 Some months is that applied learning on steroids? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:28:47 Well, John, it's good to talk. Uh, we could probably spend another two or three hours and we'll probably have you back at some point. Um, it's good to talk to you about this. It's, uh, as a reminder to our listeners, Wichita Stai is an urban public research university. And one of the main purposes is to help our community solve problems, help industry solve problems, and that's what this is all about. Appreciate you being here.
Speaker 2 00:29:09 Thanks. Pleasure.
Speaker 1 00:29:09 Yeah. Good to see you. And thank you to everyone listening. We're taking a break for January, but we'll be back with fresh episodes in the new year. Happy holidays. And go shockers.
